How to keep a strong junior partner in check?

[Kathkere]

I'm playing a normal game as Urbino. I've been blessed with a lot of good luck throughout the campaign; I've almost taken over the entirety of Italy and I've helped my loyal march Granada re-re-conquista.

Then the game dropped a bomb on me. I got France in a Personal Union! His king was 28 years old when it happened. I checked disputed succession and thought; "man, it would be so nice if that guy just died." And then it happened.



I began to worry about my newfound psychic powers, but then a more pressing matter caught my attention. The french were not as happy about this union!



And that makes sense. They are twice more powerful than me. But then again, I've seen the french bend the knee to even weaker nations, such as Brittany!



This was during a multiplayer campaign, several patches back (around Mars last year). Brittany managed to not only hold the union; they managed to integrate them!



Of course, us players allying Brittany in order to help them contain France may have had something to do with it, I don't know. It is a painful thing to remember; for one day the entirety of France was covered by glorious breton purple, and then they became France. :'(

But this leads me to believe that, even if you're weaker than your union-partner, you can keep them in check. It's not that I'm all that weak myself, I've the majority of Italy and a bit of land in Africa. How can I contain the French..?

 

[Aussiehawker]

Improve Trust with the Great power thing. Keep relations high. And try to get Frances armies wrecked in war. In the meantime developing their land can help a bit. And expand your own territory so they aren't so much stronger then you. Hopefully by using their troops to do more of the fighting.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

To keep their liberty desire low, you can :
- Improve your relations with them
- Keep your diplomatic reputation as high as possible
- Not fall behind them in diplomatic technology
- Have the biggest army possible
- Wait for trust to grow
- Use the Support Loyalists interaction (-20% LD, but you pay 10% of their monthly income)
- Should they need loans, you can repay them

If you're still afraid of France becoming disloyal, declare war on their neighbours. They'll siege France's provinces and fight their armies, diminishing France's power, while making sure France does not DoW you for their independence.

 

[Lor360]

Just for context, influencing nation for trust give something like a 2 (two) point liberty desire reduction and if your subject is big enough to be causing you problems it will probably cost 1-2 years worth of your income for it.

All of the allready mentioned options are okay but developing theire provinces is by far the easiest way to go, especialy if you have a surplus of any kind of monarch points.
The only drawback is, its a temporary solution; the reduced liberty desire from developing goes away, but the reduction is big and it goes away slowly so it shouldnt be a problem to integrate them before that.

 

[Bouchart]

Go to war. A disloyal subject won't leave their territory but will defend their own. Hope enemy armies fight the French, weakening them.

Support Loyalists can help but it can be costly.

 

[Kathkere]

Cheers for the responses! I guess I'll try to get them wrecked by their neighbours and maybe even return their Iberian provinces to Castile.

 

[ShoGuL]

Do you have common sense? The best way to lower their LD is to just develop their provinces. Each tick grants -5% LD (pretty sure this works for PU's also?).

 

[Jaapje]

Go to war with Burgundy next. War is the cheapest option by far.

 

[atwix]

@Kathkere

what to do if you get a large nation as PU subject:

be at war constantly, and never be at peace for a day. Unions get -50 malus to declare independence if overlord (and them) are in a war.

farm prestige, as PU subjects get 1% ld for each point overlord is in negative prestige. -100 prestige is 100 LD in PU subject, so farm that prestige!

If you own Cossacks dlc, you can conquer provinces near them, and then you can grant the conquered provinces with the subject window option. If the conquered provinces border them by land or sea zone, you can grant those provinces to them.
It will lower their liberty desire, and THEY got to attack the rebels that follow. Its a great way to weaken subjects.

And constant warfare (leading their armies around with 1k stack with attach on) will lower their army strength, which will all in all result in docile PU subjects.
If one of them goes above 50+% ld, then enable loyalist faction. You have to prevent PU subject from allying other subjects or asking support independence from any greater powers, which they will do if one goes above 50%.

If someone supports their independence, then rival them and crush them with humiliate rival cb. Your subject will LOSE support from said nation, and might go loyal again.

lose the war if you have to, getting LD of big PU subjects below 50% is more important.

That's the best thing to do.. Keeping free rival slot for nations that support subject independence guarantees a CB to stomp those supporters the minute they support your PU subject independence.

 

[Kathkere]

Thanks for all the advice!

When I returned to the campaign today I set off to immediately go to war. I declared war upon Aragon (whom I intended to eat) who were allied with Castile. I let Castile and France duke it out for a bit, although Castile stood no chance. Despite it all, I returned their Iberian provinces and weakened France in the process. I then declared war upon Tunis when the opportunity arose. When call for peace began I peaced out Aragaon and declared war on Burgundy. Around this time I'm rivaled by both the Commonwealth and the Ottomans, and worse yet, the Commonwealth supports France's independence. As did Genoa (not that they matter).

I ate the entire Tunisian coastline despite the AE warnings. A coalition forms: Austria, Hungary, Genoa, Tlemcen, Fezzan. Hungary also summoned their ally: the Commonwealth! This was good, because it meant France would no longer have any support. I was also blessed by even more luck as the Russians decided to intervene in the war on my side! So I then peace out Burgundy, and this is where the most critical change in liberty desire occured: I allowed Burgundy to eat France's vassal, Luxembourg. This caused their liberty desire to drop to 90%. I then began to develop in France, which brought them to 40%. We then went on to crush the coalition and I took even more land for myself. Now the realm is stable and both my subjects are happy.


(Granada is a bit sour because they wanted one of my provinces and I refused them)

So, once again, thanks for the advice. Keeping France in check may have been one of the most intense things I've experienced in this game, and having successfully crushed the coalition feels really, really good.

 

[oros]

Don't forget about advisors.
The Dip rep and the force limit ones can help. (relative power takes force limit into account)