I like this idea, maybe for each level of adviser hired, you get a 1 year ahead of time discount for that particular category of tech. So if you have a level 3 commandant, you'll get to ignore 3 years of ahead of time in the MIL category.
How to improve Innovative idea group?
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I like this idea, maybe for each level of adviser hired, you get a 1 year ahead of time discount for that particular category of tech. So if you have a level 3 commandant, you'll get to ignore 3 years of ahead of time in the MIL category.
That could also work, but the point of these suggestion is to make the group coherent with a theme and to make it a reasonable choice when picking adm ideas. Knowledge transfer and Optimism were the main reason one took Innovative, back when it was useful, and both improved tha ability to wage war, rather than innovating anything. So one took Innovative as a Mil group paid with Adm points.
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I never understood why Wiz removed Knowledge Transfer, especially in the current context of preference tall over wide states. If we are supposed to play tall, that implies that we will not be expanding as much as a player who goes wide, so our AT will be more precious. In order for smaller states to survive in the competition of large aggressors warring constantly, they need ways how to conserve AT better. And besides, many innovations were actually born in military domain since many states in Europe competed for any edge they could get.
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Innovative
-2 year Ahead of time penalty (You get the ahead bonus even for the 2 free years)
+5% Tactics (Only tactics not discipline)
Patron of the Arts-1% Prestige decay
-25% Advisor costs
-10% cost on the technology you have your national focus set on (without dlc -5% technology cost)
Optimism-0.02 Monthly war exhaustion
Light of the Reason+25% Advisor bonus strength (basic bonus, not mana)
Bonus:Can hire level 4 advisors
Used saegoto's proposal but did some major changes. I removed the ahead of time bonus because it was to strong in my opinion and instead increased the other part of it. I nerfed optimism because it don't feel right that innovative most powerful idea is a war exhuastion reduction. Merc idea removed for more focus on advisor and technology. Level 4 advisiors are expansive and will probably not give you as many monarch points as some reductions and cb's can save you. Extra buildings fits more economic ideas then innovative so that could be saved for a change of economic ideas. Modern tactics give a very smal but atleast useful bonus and fits more with innovative then resilient state does also it would maybe be the only direct tactic increase in the game. I don't like obvious filler ideas so they should be changed into something that is atleast somewhat useful.
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5% discipline gives 5% military tactics and increase dmg. I would buff it to 10%. But it fits better to a military idea, defensive e.g.
4 lvl advisors aren't too strong?
why such big nerf to optimism?
if u don't like merc cooldown, maybe reinforment cost reduction (for merc or regular army or both) would be interesting?
4 lvl advisors aren't too strong?
why such big nerf to optimism?
if u don't like merc cooldown, maybe reinforment cost reduction (for merc or regular army or both) would be interesting?
Optimism is to dominant for my taste (half the reduction of being at peace), it can by itself make you pretty much immune from war exhuastion and keeping it so strong with everything else I added into innovative would make the group to strong.
Level 4 advisors are really expansive so it will probably take a while to get 3 level 4 advisors and things like administration core reduction may save more monarch points then level 4 advisors will give you. Level 4 advisors atleast would be a finisher that fits the advisor focused innovative idea group and I doubt many would complain about another way to increase your monarch points.
I like the tactic bonus better then a merch bonus for innovative especially since that administration is so loaded with merch bonuses, 10% tactic bonus I think is to strong for a non military idea group like innovative espacially with the other bonuses I gave to it. My main idea was that innovative would be less military heavy then it have been previously (war exhuastion reduction and military tradition), it will however get military tech 2 years ahead so that is quite a big advantage.
Mech cooldown feels like a useless filler idea and if it fits somewhere it is in administration ideas and reinforcement cost fits better to quantity ideas and reinforcement speed fits better to offensive ideas (faster recovery is offensive in nature). Both offensive and quality gets discipline bonus so they don't need extra tactics. I think idea groups should be rather focused so I tried to keep innovative focused on tech and advisors with some smal bonuses for military.
Level 4 advisors are really expansive so it will probably take a while to get 3 level 4 advisors and things like administration core reduction may save more monarch points then level 4 advisors will give you. Level 4 advisors atleast would be a finisher that fits the advisor focused innovative idea group and I doubt many would complain about another way to increase your monarch points.
I like the tactic bonus better then a merch bonus for innovative especially since that administration is so loaded with merch bonuses, 10% tactic bonus I think is to strong for a non military idea group like innovative espacially with the other bonuses I gave to it. My main idea was that innovative would be less military heavy then it have been previously (war exhuastion reduction and military tradition), it will however get military tech 2 years ahead so that is quite a big advantage.
Mech cooldown feels like a useless filler idea and if it fits somewhere it is in administration ideas and reinforcement cost fits better to quantity ideas and reinforcement speed fits better to offensive ideas (faster recovery is offensive in nature). Both offensive and quality gets discipline bonus so they don't need extra tactics. I think idea groups should be rather focused so I tried to keep innovative focused on tech and advisors with some smal bonuses for military.
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I believe a problem with prestige decay is that, if you get stuck with negative prestige, it actually increases more slowly.
This is getting fixed in 1.13 I think.
+10% Advisor bonus strength (basic bonus, not mana)
Ooh, I like this idea. Makes advisors better without giving free mana. It could probably afford to be a little stronger than 10% without being unbalanced, now that all the OP advisors have been nerfed.
(Not keen on the level 4 advisors idea - it would only benefit huge blobs anyway, and mana is scarce for such countries for a reason. +1 building slots would be totally OP for blobs.)
Reduced policy duration could also work for Innovative. Similarly reduced national focus duration. They're both situational bonuses, but nice to have and they make your country more responsive to changes in circumstances, which fits the Innovative theme.
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I´d say I still rather see level 4 or even above advisors only if you have a certain ratio of universities.
Could be interesting, but a little weird to see everyone pack their countries with universities to squeeze out more monarch points.
Number of universities doesn't really correlate with intellectual achievement, anyway. Look at England, a country with a grand total of 2 universities until after the end of the EU4 era. (The UK included a bunch more, but in England itself, Oxford and Cambridge managed to maintain their duopoly for more than half a millennium.)
It might work to have +4 and higher advisors created by event on rare occasions. Event advisors could also have some sort of discount on salary (it's a bit mean to tell the player that some historical genius like Galileo or Vauban or whoever wants to advise them, only to find out they can't afford him). But I don't think their should be a reliable recipe for conjuring up ridiculously high-level advisors on demand, no matter how rich you are.
Glad prestige decay is getting fixed.
A couple "innovative" ideas:
Tutors
Heir gains a point or two of MP
Soft Power
Increase culture conversion or perhaps coring speed
A couple "innovative" ideas:
Tutors
Heir gains a point or two of MP
Soft Power
Increase culture conversion or perhaps coring speed
Honestly I've never quite understood the point of differentiating between prestige and prestige decay.
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I'm not feeling enthusiastic about my conquests in the current patch because I know that if I wipe out a OPM I'm missing out on a much better province in 50 years. I'd like to see -10% inflation idea changed to the current -25% adviser cost capstone, and the capstone replaced with "innovation events". A small chance in each province yearly to gain a development point to a random attribute.
Formula might work similar to the old tech rate formula where country size < 4 provinces 10%, then -0.5% per province down to 0.5% per year in each province. For a 100 province behemoth, this would net 50 development over 100 years, a four provence minor gaining 40. Basically replacing about half a small war, not a big deal but enough to make the idea group more interesting.
Essentially innovative prevents a nation from stagnating as it grows, or boosts a small nation very high.
Formula might work similar to the old tech rate formula where country size < 4 provinces 10%, then -0.5% per province down to 0.5% per year in each province. For a 100 province behemoth, this would net 50 development over 100 years, a four provence minor gaining 40. Basically replacing about half a small war, not a big deal but enough to make the idea group more interesting.
Essentially innovative prevents a nation from stagnating as it grows, or boosts a small nation very high.
Innovative
Scientific Revolution
-2 year Ahead of time penalty (You get the ahead bonus even for the 2 free years)
Modern Tactics
+5% Tactics (Only tactics not discipline)
Patron of the Arts
-1% Prestige decay
Dynamic Court
-25% Advisor costs
Knowledge Is Power
-10% cost on the technology you have your national focus set on (without dlc -5% technology cost)
Optimism
-0.02 Monthly war exhaustion
+25% Advisor bonus strength (basic bonus, not mana)
Bonus:
Can hire level 4 advisors
Used saegoto's proposal but did some major changes. I removed the ahead of time bonus because it was to strong in my opinion and instead increased the other part of it. I nerfed optimism because it don't feel right that innovative most powerful idea is a war exhuastion reduction. Merc idea removed for more focus on advisor and technology. Level 4 advisiors are expansive and will probably not give you as many monarch points as some reductions and cb's can save you. Extra buildings fits more economic ideas then innovative so that could be saved for a change of economic ideas. Modern tactics give a very smal but atleast useful bonus and fits more with innovative then resilient state does also it would maybe be the only direct tactic increase in the game. I don't like obvious filler ideas so they should be changed into something that is atleast somewhat useful.
I don't think Innovative in this case should have any military ideas such as Modern Tactics. Optimism and Pragmatism works because they are still result of administrative improvements, not directly Military.
Also the level 4 advisors and advisor bonuses feels a little OP and creates a lot of weird values which I dislike.
Hiring massive number of mercenaries for cannon fodder is a valid option for some countries which gets hurt by your proposed change.
I suggest keeping everything relatively simple and just add a little interesting effect.
1. Patron of the Arts -1% Prestige decay
2. Pragmatism -25% Mercenary cost
3. Scientific Revolution -5% tech cost or whatever you prefer in that category
4. Dynamic court +1 possible advisors
5. -25% advisor cost
6. Optimism -0.03 Monthly war exhaustion (Don't nerf too hard so it's in line with DotF)
7. Legacy of Great Men/Women Gain MP equal to 12 times advisor's level when advisor dies, double bonus for Advisors in service. (obviously dismissing does not count)
Bonus: -2 year ahead of time penalty
I propose 7 to deal with the general feeling that +1 possible advisors are a weak bonus, and as a side bonus makes getting event advisors more desirable.
I'd say make it more about monarch points conservation/generation. Maybe add an idea like +1 to national focus, or remove the -1s from setting a focus(too strong?)
It's fine though, all of the ideas are pretty solid except for the -10% inflation red cost which is just insulting. It just gets outshined by the other admin groups, i think it was a lot more viable before they forced players to stagger their ideas between the tech groups
It's fine though, all of the ideas are pretty solid except for the -10% inflation red cost which is just insulting. It just gets outshined by the other admin groups, i think it was a lot more viable before they forced players to stagger their ideas between the tech groups
Plus some great policy it unlocks. Innovative is not weak in my opinion.
Some cool ideas around, i went throught posts and made a summary and edited first post to make this thread a bit more comprehensive. I tried to include everything whether i liked it or not. If i missed something please notify me and i will add it to suggestions.
Summary so far:
Two ideas wanted mostly out or changed/replaced:
- Idea 2. -25% Mercenary cost
- Idea 5. -10% Reduce inflation cost
Suggestions:
-1 Prestige decay to +1 Prestige (straight buff to decay idea)
- -1.25% prestige decay.
- Inflation reduction discount upped to -15% or changed to a flat -.1 inflation per year
+1 Leader(s) without upkeep; 50% cheaper leader recruitment
- 25% Mercenary cooldown (faster merc availability)
+1 Possible advisors; -33% cost to hiring and firing advisors
-33% Advisor costs (buff from 25 to 33)
- +25% (or more) Advisor bonus strength (basic bonus, not mana)
- Increases the advisor's bonus by 50% in the field where you have the national focus
Bonus: Can hire level 4 advisors
- Legacy of Great Men/Women Gain MP equal to 12 times advisor's level when advisor dies, double bonus for Advisors in service
-5% Idea cost
-10% Development costs
-10% Tech discount on teching ahead of time and an increased bonus for being ahead of time in tech.
- Scientific revolution: -1 (or -2) year Ahead of time penalty, +50% Being ahead of time bonus (+10% prod. eff. for adm tech and +10% trade eff. for diplo tech, none for mil tech)
- you get a 1 year ahead of time discount for that particular category of tech. So if you have a level 3 commandant, you'll get to ignore 3 years of ahead of time in the MIL category.)
- Knowledge Is Power:-10% cost on the technology you have your national focus set on (without dlc -5% technology cost)
- Receive random extra monarch point per month
- Tutors: Heir gains a point or two of MP
- Return old Knowledge Transfer bonus (balanced) -1% Army Tradition and Navy Tradition dexay
- Add diplomatic reputation bonus
- Bonus: +1 Building per province
- Modern Tactics: +5(+10%)% Tactics (Only tactics not discipline)
- -3 years duration of policies
- Soft Power: Increase culture conversion or perhaps coring speed
A nerf: Optimism -0.03 or -0,02 Monthly war exhaustion
Summary so far:
Two ideas wanted mostly out or changed/replaced:
- Idea 2. -25% Mercenary cost
- Idea 5. -10% Reduce inflation cost
Suggestions:
-1 Prestige decay to +1 Prestige (straight buff to decay idea)
- -1.25% prestige decay.
- Inflation reduction discount upped to -15% or changed to a flat -.1 inflation per year
+1 Leader(s) without upkeep; 50% cheaper leader recruitment
- 25% Mercenary cooldown (faster merc availability)
+1 Possible advisors; -33% cost to hiring and firing advisors
-33% Advisor costs (buff from 25 to 33)
- +25% (or more) Advisor bonus strength (basic bonus, not mana)
- Increases the advisor's bonus by 50% in the field where you have the national focus
Bonus: Can hire level 4 advisors
- Legacy of Great Men/Women Gain MP equal to 12 times advisor's level when advisor dies, double bonus for Advisors in service
-5% Idea cost
-10% Development costs
-10% Tech discount on teching ahead of time and an increased bonus for being ahead of time in tech.
- Scientific revolution: -1 (or -2) year Ahead of time penalty, +50% Being ahead of time bonus (+10% prod. eff. for adm tech and +10% trade eff. for diplo tech, none for mil tech)
- you get a 1 year ahead of time discount for that particular category of tech. So if you have a level 3 commandant, you'll get to ignore 3 years of ahead of time in the MIL category.)
- Knowledge Is Power:-10% cost on the technology you have your national focus set on (without dlc -5% technology cost)
- Receive random extra monarch point per month
- Tutors: Heir gains a point or two of MP
- Return old Knowledge Transfer bonus (balanced) -1% Army Tradition and Navy Tradition dexay
- Add diplomatic reputation bonus
- Bonus: +1 Building per province
- Modern Tactics: +5(+10%)% Tactics (Only tactics not discipline)
- -3 years duration of policies
- Soft Power: Increase culture conversion or perhaps coring speed
A nerf: Optimism -0.03 or -0,02 Monthly war exhaustion
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Nerfing Optimism to -0,03 (on par with Defender of the Faith) is fine if the group is more coherent and useful.
This is my suggestion:
Patron of the arts: -1% prestige decay [weak filler, but fits the theme and the events of the group]
Pragmatism: -25% mercenary costs [weak]
Scientific revolution: -1 year ahead of time tech cost penalty and +50% ahead of time bonus [strongish]
Dynamic Court: +1 possible advisors, -33% "hire and fire" cost [decent]
Resilient State: +50% advisor specialty bonus in the field with national focus [weak but flexible = decent]
Optimism: -0,03 monthly WE [nerfed but still good]
Formalized Officier Corps: +1 leader without upkeep, -10% leader recruitment cost [saves 5 points every leader = 1 leader free every ten]
Bonus: -25% advisors costs [fine as it stands]
This is my suggestion:
Patron of the arts: -1% prestige decay [weak filler, but fits the theme and the events of the group]
Pragmatism: -25% mercenary costs [weak]
Scientific revolution: -1 year ahead of time tech cost penalty and +50% ahead of time bonus [strongish]
Dynamic Court: +1 possible advisors, -33% "hire and fire" cost [decent]
Resilient State: +50% advisor specialty bonus in the field with national focus [weak but flexible = decent]
Optimism: -0,03 monthly WE [nerfed but still good]
Formalized Officier Corps: +1 leader without upkeep, -10% leader recruitment cost [saves 5 points every leader = 1 leader free every ten]
Bonus: -25% advisors costs [fine as it stands]
Any buffs should err on the side of not enough, so as to make the idea OP.
My suggestion.
Patron of the Arts: -1% Prestige decay
Pragmatism: either -25% Mercenary Cost or -5% development cost
Scientific Revolution: -5% Tech cost, -1 year ahead of time.
Dynamic Court: +1 Possible advisors, -33% hire and retire costs (shamelessly stolen from Ameron)
Resilient State: either +0.10 Yearly inflation reduction or -50% Reduce inflation cost
Optimism: -0.05 Monthly war exhaustion
Formalised Officer Corps: +1 Leader(s) without upkeep.
Bonus: -25% Advisor costs.
I feel that these changes buff some of the weaker ideas in the group, without making it OP. Especially in light of its existing powerful policies, events and event mtth modifiers. The focus is on advisors and tech, while still providing all round benefits (I always saw it, and Plutocratic as the something for everyone groups)
Edit - also the "Dangerous ideas are spreading" event should instead provide a bonus if you have humanism.
My suggestion.
Patron of the Arts: -1% Prestige decay
Pragmatism: either -25% Mercenary Cost or -5% development cost
Scientific Revolution: -5% Tech cost, -1 year ahead of time.
Dynamic Court: +1 Possible advisors, -33% hire and retire costs (shamelessly stolen from Ameron)
Resilient State: either +0.10 Yearly inflation reduction or -50% Reduce inflation cost
Optimism: -0.05 Monthly war exhaustion
Formalised Officer Corps: +1 Leader(s) without upkeep.
Bonus: -25% Advisor costs.
I feel that these changes buff some of the weaker ideas in the group, without making it OP. Especially in light of its existing powerful policies, events and event mtth modifiers. The focus is on advisors and tech, while still providing all round benefits (I always saw it, and Plutocratic as the something for everyone groups)
Edit - also the "Dangerous ideas are spreading" event should instead provide a bonus if you have humanism.