How to improve Innovative idea group?

[lolada]

Spoiler: My suggestion - List of ideas here

I file like discussing and on recent voting Innovative idea was one of the worst ideas next to Espionage, Naval and Maritime. If you have any ideas to improve it, discuss.

I'll start with what i think is bad and can be improved:

Idea 1. -1% Prestige decay
- weaker than straight +1 Prestige; for example if you have 50 prestige this will just have effect of 0,5 prestige; if you are at 0 prestige its useless

Idea 2. -25% Mercenary cost
- also weak idea, mercenary cost does not effect mercenary maintenace. So this saves only <10 ducats per mercenary hired. Can be made decent for people who spam the mercenaries, but as we could see plenty of people dislike that playstyle

Idea 3. -5% Technology cost

- this save 90 (3x30) points per tech level. This is supposed to be main idea of the group and to be awesome, whole group should be picked !early! as 1st or 2nd idea group

Idea 4. +1 Possible advisors

- decent idea, nothing special

Idea 5. -10% Reduce inflation cost

- terribad idea, saves 7,5 admin points per click

Idea 6. -0.05 Monthly war exhaustion

- excellent idea for warmongers (most players war most of the time), probably the best idea in the group

Idea 7. +1 Leader(s) without upkeep

- decent idea, nothing special

BONUS: -25% Advisor costs
- good bonus, because it saves money and allows getting more monarch points earlier through better advisors


My suggestion to buffing:
- group should be good as first or second pick so it can use its monarch points ideas well
- gonna keep the base about the same; i focused group on getting and saving monarch points and some ducats

Idea 1. -5% Technology cost
Idea 2. +1 Prestige (straight buff to decay idea)
Idea 3. -5% Idea cost (this is 20 monarch points per idea - 140 per group)
Idea 4. +1 Possible advisors; -33% cost to hiring and firing advisors (idea got weaker with new DLC introduction)
Idea 5. Development costs -10% - inflation filler totally out, innovation in development...
Idea 6. -0.05 Monthly war exhaustion
Idea 7. +1 Leader(s) without upkeep; 50% cheaper leader recruitment - saves points, buff a bit weak idea
BONUS: -33% Advisor costs (buff from 25 to 33) - buff money saving and indirectly monarch point gains

Should be now quite good first or second idea pick. Leaves space for people to use spare monarch points to develop or to core more land if they go conquering path.

EDIT:

Summary so far:

Two ideas wanted mostly out or changed/replaced:
- Idea 2. -25% Mercenary cost
- Idea 5. -10% Reduce inflation cost

Suggestions:

-1 Prestige decay to +1 Prestige (straight buff to decay idea)
- -1.25% prestige decay.

- Inflation reduction discount upped to -15% or changed to a flat -.1 inflation per year

+1 Leader(s) without upkeep; 50% cheaper leader recruitment

- 25% Mercenary cooldown (faster merc availability)

+1 Possible advisors; -33% cost to hiring and firing advisors
-33% Advisor costs (buff from 25 to 33)
- +25% (or more) Advisor bonus strength (basic bonus, not mana)
- Increases the advisor's bonus by 50% in the field where you have the national focus
Bonus: Can hire level 4 advisors
- Legacy of Great Men/Women Gain MP equal to 12 times advisor's level when advisor dies, double bonus for Advisors in service

-5% Idea cost
-10% Development costs
-10% Tech discount on teching ahead of time and an increased bonus for being ahead of time in tech.
- Scientific revolution: -1 (or -2) year Ahead of time penalty, +50% Being ahead of time bonus (+10% prod. eff. for adm tech and +10% trade eff. for diplo tech, none for mil tech)
- you get a 1 year ahead of time discount for that particular category of tech. So if you have a level 3 commandant, you'll get to ignore 3 years of ahead of time in the MIL category.)
- Knowledge Is Power:-10% cost on the technology you have your national focus set on (without dlc -5% technology cost)
- Receive random extra monarch point per month
- Tutors: Heir gains a point or two of MP

- Return old Knowledge Transfer bonus (balanced) -1% Army Tradition and Navy Tradition dexay
- Add diplomatic reputation bonus
- Bonus: +1 Building per province
- Modern Tactics: +5(+10%)% Tactics (Only tactics not discipline)
- -3 years duration of policies
- Soft Power: Increase culture conversion or perhaps coring speed


A nerf: Optimism -0.03 or -0,02 Monthly war exhaustion

 

[zezeb]

I think the mercenary cost -25% also effect the maintance of them while it is the recruitment cost that changes how much they cost to recruit.

 

[damifoe]

Yes, it is one of the weakest ideas, but i would only change the prestige decay and reduced inflation costs (worst idea of all groups).

It somehow doesnt fit to the other admin groups: they are all somehow unique: One for Religion, one fur culture, one for colonial empire in asia, one for conquering and one for development. But innovative lacks something that makes it unique. Perhaps some other bonus? Perhaps we could make it possible for them to get a tech 2 years earlier without having to pay the additional +20% costs? or maybe 3 years? Would fit with the name 'innovative'.

 

[ringhloth]

Innovative has two very strong ideas, and I know a few people who choose it just for those too. Not to mention that innovative provides the most "hidden benefits" of any group. You know that fantastic event you get for having good advisers? Innovative cuts the MTTH for that by a decent amount.

 

[lolada]

I think the mercenary cost -25% also effect the maintance of them while it is the recruitment cost that changes how much they cost to recruit.

There's formula on the wiki and it can be tested - regular maintenance unit cost will reduce mercenaries cost. For example Quantity idea groups will better boost mercenaries than this idea in Innovative.

 

[MAHak]

Don't forgot that "modern fire-arms technique" policy (Innovation + Quality), 20 % better infantry combat ability. Which is probably the best policy for a warmonger.

 

[Ameron]

There's a few reasons, imho, why the group is so bad.
First, it doesn't fit well a particular theme: it's not about technologies, it's not about advisors, it's about nothing in particular; to make it a feasible choice, probably we should give it a stronger "flavour".

If the Flavour is technologies, there's one issue: literally every idea in every group gives a discount on tech cost, so why a 5% discount idea should matter at all? The following would be much more useful: -10% tech discount on teching ahead of time and an increased bonus for being ahead of time in tech. Two ideas and the group already feel much better.

If the Flavour is advisors, the group already has some focus on it; still, there's one new issue with the last patch: + possible advisors ideas became rather poor since it's possible to generate new advisors just paying their hiring cost. On one hand, you spend 400 monarch points for an idea which gives you more choices with advisors, on the other hand you spend ducats to get unwanted advisors out of your list. So, coupled with that idea, to keep it useful, there should be a cost reduction for "hiring and firing", and that's just to restore the group's power to what it was before the patch. Then I would add an idea which increases the advisor's bonus by 50% in the field where you have the national focus. Suppose I hired a Theologian and I have focus on administrative, that would mean a bonus of -1 national unrest; if I fire the Theologian and hire an Inquisitor, the bonus become a +1% missionari strenght; if I switch focus on military, I can get a +5% morale with an Army Reformer, or a +2,5% discipline with a Commandant, etc.

 

[Tacticus101]

It used to be one of the strongest idea groups in the game, now it is weak. It will get changes to make it strong again, I have no doubt. Adding strange and unique bonus' like and increased bonus of being ahead of time is not the solution.

 

[bex I]

From a multiplayer perspective:

A lot of people i know always pick quality --> eco ---> offensive --> innovative (sometimes offensive first). Reason? If you do this you get +5 disc, +20% inf combat + 20% arty combat. And thats really strong. The most important thing in my games is a strong military, and you have to decide between an admin and a diplo idea when you reach admin 14, there are only 2 that really improve your military:
Innovative or Religious. But for western powers religious is nearly useless, especially since the cb isnt that great in MP, which means religious is kind of a bad idea group in this case(actually you gain nothing but -25% stab, the good events and the policy with 2,5 disc and 10% morale). Innovative on the other hand reduces merc cost(very good), gives 1 leader(VERY good, especially for large countries with several armies), the -25% advisor cost allow you to get +3 advisors and their events sooner (also very good, it saves thousands of ducats every few years), and the monthly we is necessary if you cant get DotF or dont want to pay the +5% techcost (which sums up to 10% combined with the -5% from the idea.)

You see: Innovative maybe is not that good in SP, but for MP its prolly the 2nd best Admin idea group for land based powers. Well balanced i would say. I'd rather like to see a buff to the diplogroup policies (its a long time i picked one if not playing a coloniser and then exploration only).

 

[Ameron]

Given that the vast majority of players is SP, MP balance should be the last thing to care about, not the first.

 

[grommile]

Given that the vast majority of players is SP, MP balance should be the last thing to care about, not the first.

Mechanical balance is hard to assess when one of the players is vastly more competent than all of their opponents.

 

[Ameron]

Mechanical balance is hard to assess when one of the players is vastly more competent than all of their opponents.

Actually, not: regarding Innovative it's enough to see the total bonus gained from it and to compare it with the total bonus gained from something else.

 

[grommile]

Actually, not: regarding Innovative it's enough to see the total bonus gained from it and comparing with the total bonus gained from something else.

Against low-competence opposition, the strongest benefits of Innovative look a lot less attractive than the strongest benefits of other idea groups.

 

[Incompetent]

People may pick the group for policies alone, but I don't think that is how idea groups are supposed to be balanced (not least because it locks you into specific combos of idea groups to get the right policies.)

The mercenary cost and inflation cost ideas should be removed, not just because they are weak, but because they don't really fit the theme.

Idea 1. -5% Technology cost
Idea 2. +1 Prestige (straight buff to decay idea)

Yes, this would be a good change.

Idea 3. -5% Idea cost (this is 20 monarch points per idea - 140 per group)

Idea cost certainly fits the theme, although I find tech/idea cost reductions a bit dull (they save some mana but don't really change how you play).

Idea 4. +1 Possible advisors; -33% cost to hiring and firing advisors (idea got weaker with new DLC introduction)

The bonus already reduces advisor cost, which presumably includes hiring and firing (if not, it should).

Idea 5. Development costs -10% - inflation filler totally out, innovation in development...
Idea 6. -0.05 Monthly war exhaustion
Idea 7. +1 Leader(s) without upkeep; 50% cheaper leader recruitment - saves points, buff a bit weak idea
BONUS: -33% Advisor costs (buff from 25 to 33) - buff money saving and indirectly monarch point gains

I think of development as more of an economic/adminstrative thing (infrastructure), but seeing as universities aid development, maybe it is supposed to represent localised technological innovations as well, so this makes sense.

Cheaper leader recruitment could be a bit too strong, seeing as more rolls means significantly better leaders on average. +1 leader without upkeep already sounds decent to me.

Some other ideas for things to put in:
- I miss the old Knowledge Transfer bonus. It was a bit OP, but it made sense in this group. Maybe it could be brought back with -1% AT/NT decay and it would be balanced.
- Something to do with an area that historically made heavy use of mathematics, such as navigation or architecture.
- Maybe a diprep bonus to represent the persuasiveness of your intellectuals?

 

[yerm]

Innovative is a ton of flat bonuses, and arguably its name is ironic since there is nothing unique or original in the group at all. I have a few ideas to help it out:

- Change the tech reduction to a years ahead of time reduction. Rather than all techs being 5% cheaper, make all techs 1 year early. This means IF you are buying technology ahead of time, you are saving 10% rather than 5% but if you are buying techs late it does nothing.

- Give some form of a development-related bonus. This idea group was historically associated with nations that also heavily developed internally such as England and Prussia. Perhaps a reduction in terrain penalty, or a reduction in the scaling cost %, or a reduction to whatever replaces +5 per development, or something else.

- Throw in something that's actually unique. Maybe +1 building per province for the ambition, with the advisor ideas being merged. As it stands innovative gives you nothing but bonuses to stuff you can already do. Give it something... innovative!

 

[sesn]

-10% tech discount on teching ahead of time and an increased bonus for being ahead of time in tech

I think something like this is the way to go. Make Innovative attractive for countries who are often ahead of time. Also, it would need one or to ideas that facilitate spending the exess monarch point, like development cost.

 

[Beagá]

Innovative isn´t bad. It would if the policies sucked, which they don´t.

I like that you people deliberatedly ignore the policies it unlocks. Or the events. Or how easy it makes to get the Reformation going.

Maybe something regarding Autonomy since Innovative would mean also more effective government, but that would require making Autonomy more relevant as a whole.

 

[yerm]

Innovative isn´t bad. It would if the policies sucked, which they don´t.

I like that you people deliberatedly ignore the policies it unlocks. Or the events. Or how easy it makes to get the Reformation going.

Maybe something regarding Autonomy since Innovative would mean also more effective government, but that would require making Autonomy more relevant as a whole.

What gamebreakingly amazing policies are you looking at? The only truly spectacular pick-the-idea-group-for-this policy is 20 inf CA paired with quality. The fact that this pairs with quality means you need to take yet another mediocre SP idea group in the first place, and then even if it's a competitive MP environment, that policy lines up analogous to religious' disc and morale policy, so it's not even as if there aren't alternatives to it on a significantly better idea group.

It's events are probably the second best of any idea group, yes, but I don't know anyone who picks economic and innovative just for clutch events. I mean, what are you up against? I can consider the event argument when the religious vs humanist argument comes up, since religious events are so much better by comparison, but what are we comparing innovative to? What idea group is being skipped in favor of innovative because of how much better its events are? Not economic. So what then? Are you passing up humanist to take innovative? That's totally apples to oranges. Are you passing up a mil group stack in favor of just having policies and using the spare mil points and tech reduction to time being ahead on tech?

 

[Ameron]

Innovative's events are good, right, but to chose it because of them is silly. One random event every five year, and unless it's my only Idea Group I'm not even guaranteed to get an event from its list.

 

[Chat]

I keep staring at the innovative ideas and wanting to take them, but I invariably pick just about anything else. Sure, some of the policies are great, but I tend to like my MPs for other things, so they're usually only activated when I feel they'll make a major enough difference. The events, nice enough, but do I want to bank on possibly getting a good event from Innovative to make it a little more worthwhile, or do I want to take an idea group that will be consistently and continuously helping me out?

Just getting rid of that decreased cost for reduce inflation would be a good start. It's nearly a spend 400 admin to just unlock the next idea. The prestige decay is the next most unappealing one to me. It's just unexciting, and doesn't do much even when you're rolling in the prestige. Switching out those two alone would make the idea group more enticing.

- Change the tech reduction to a years ahead of time reduction. Rather than all techs being 5% cheaper, make all techs 1 year early. This means IF you are buying technology ahead of time, you are saving 10% rather than 5% but if you are buying techs late it does nothing.

I would hazard that most players wait for the techs to hit -5% from on time + neighbour bonus before purchasing a tech (at least the ones I watch do), and I feel like getting a tech for standard price a year early isn't exactly the most appealing. It could be fantastic a certain tech levels, where being the first into a military tech can give you a nice edge against the opponent, but otherwise I'd just wait that extra year and save the extra monarch points. Maybe make it 15%, so when you're a year early, it will cost -5%, same as if you had a neighbour with it, but being on time or having a neighbour with the tech level will drop 10% off your bonus, both being true will nullify your bonus entirely.

Might be a little complicated for a tooltip though