How to Get Titles from Pagans?

[unmerged(31020)]

I'm the Orthodox Count of Pskov, Novorod, Kiev and something else...
My former liege converted to Paganism and is now the High Chief of Kiev and Novgorod (my backstabbing lead to an unexpected outcome again ).
I went to war with him and won a 100% victory. Yet there seems to be no way to get his duke titles. They don't appear in the peace resolution table. There's no way (and usually no need of course) to claim or ursup titles from Pagans.

Any advice? I'm in urgent need of a Duke title... and after all that treachery I certainly deserve it!

 

[unmerged(56887)]

Have you checked the 'Create Title' screen?

 

[unmerged(31020)]

Yes, they can't be created. I do own enough provinces of Novgorod to create or usurp that title.

 

[unmerged(31881)]

i think you're using DV, but in CK you could take away all the lands of the pagan title holder after they're landless. If they are still floating around alive and with the titles after running out of land and vassal, bump them off/wait and you'll be able to create the titles on your own, normally.

 

[jordarkelf]

For unrecreatable titles, you sometimes can get a claim on one of these titles by event.
For duke-level titles, you can force them to become your vassal and then revoke the title.

For recreatable titles like Kiev, either usurp the titles if you own 66% of the associated lands, or just kill him and then recreate.

 

[unmerged(31020)]

Thanks all! Apparently there is no clean solution for this situation, which I feel is a serious game design flaw.

As I said in my first post, I can't usurp the title of Novgorod, although I own 2/3 of the associated land. Usurping from religious enemies is impossible - and it shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

So the only possible way is to wipe hime off the map, which is kinda difficult, as that High Chief has 12 vassals, and I'm still a humble count. Which means I'd have to annex 14 provinces in one go. While I easily have enough manpower to do that as the owner of Novgorod and Kiev, this would probably force me to run at zero efficiency for 2 or 3 years and amass insane badboy. I doubt this would be an enjoyable victory...

Hm, another way that should work: I could declare war on him and submit myself to become his vassal again. Then I'd have to wait for an event to convert to Paganism. Now I could usurp or claim the titles, and take them in yet another war. Next I'd have to submit myself to some Christian king in order to reconvert to Christian faith (and since there are no Orthodox kings at this time, I'd become Catholic). Oh, and I'd have to pray that the game doesn't crash in the process, cause savegames of non-Christians can't be loaded. Should work, but certainly makes no sense at all. :rofl:

So if I wanted to continue this game, I'd have to go the cheap route and jump at some other unsuspecting weak duke in order to get a duke title that is totally unrelated to my lands. Then I could force-vassalize the vassals of that damn High Chief and easily get the titles I that belong to my lands.

But then, the realm of mighty Novgorod and Kiev would still bear the name of some godforsaken Lithuanian swamp.

 

[unmerged(31881)]

When you put it that way... you really should write an AAR about it.


On the other hand, what i'd say is: go to war, crush your enemy, take his titles. Hear the lamentations of his courtiers.

Oh and make sure before you started you had a bunch of daughters to hold on to the titles for a couple decades. Because with my luck, i'd have a crash on the last day of sieging his last province as a converted pagan rebel.

 

[Wezqu]

I was in one game Duke of Rügen stole the tittle from a pagan nation by first getting the claim from an event and then declaring war and demaning the tittle. I also once got some muslim tittles by marriage to one of the muslim daughters and then wait that they will die and my sons will inherit the tittles. Then just declaring war against the tittle holder and again stealing it from them. In that game I quite frankly centered around getting tittle claims that way and it was quite fun to have several muslim tittles under christian rule. I quite frankly would want to steal the muslim King of Egypt tittle and then also create the christian Kingdom of Egypt so I would be King of Egypt twice.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

The only way to get that duke-title is to get a claim on it somehow. And since he is pagan, you can only get it by event.

The question is though, how did your liege become a pagan ? Are you playing the 1337-scenario perhaps ?

Thanks all! Apparently there is no clean solution for this situation, which I feel is a serious game design flaw.

The number of instances where your liege is a muslim or pagan are minimal. So IMHO it isn't such a serious flaw.

 

[chowbeng]

My solution is that you make peace and somehow you can get yourself a(any) king level title. DoW him and vassalise him and then you can revoke his titles. =D

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Destroy the guy and annex all his provinces in one go. Hand them out to courtiers to get efficiency back to ~60%. Wait for the landless high chief to bite the dust (should happen quickly if you have DVIP, there are events that kill landless dukes and kings IIRC) and then, if he has no heirs, you can create the title for yourself. If he has heirs, destroy them too. Although if he is a recent convert to paganism, he should have Christian heirs from whom you can usurb, grab ect to get the title you deserve.

 

[chowbeng]

The pagan title in question is not createable.

 

[unmerged(31020)]

The question is though, how did your liege become a pagan ? Are you playing the 1337-scenario perhaps ?

Nope, 1066. It must have happened about ten years into the game.

I was Count of Pskov, my liege the Prince of Novgorod, the normal initial setup. His ally and daddy, the Prince of Kiev, declared war on me for reasons that are beyond me again (no claim, no honoring of an alliance, no friendships/rivalties), my liege came to my defense. Being the nice guy I am, I took that opportunity to backstab him and sieged the province of Novgorod, while Kiev sieged Livs, his second province. Eventually I got the province of Novgorod in the peace deal, while Kiev took the title Prince of Novgorod, which left the former owner as count of Livs.

My impression was that he became a vassal to the High Chief of Livs the very same moment. I'm not sure if they were at war too, maybe he submitted himself for peace (does the AI do that anyway?) He converted to Paganism to please his new liege - and shortly thereafter inherited Kiev.

 

[unmerged(31020)]

Interestingly, I could have demanded those duke titles as King of Rus a few years later, while they were still Pagans. Does that make sense? Don't think so.

 

[unmerged(31881)]

It would make sense if in the interim you had managed to pick up claims for the titles. e.g. if you can, as an Orthodox ruler, track down and arrange a marriage into the line of the Bulgar or Cuman king-titles... you could theoretically obtain a claim on those titles. And then wage war to win them. Rather than having to destroy the Cumans or Bulgars outright in a war and recreating the title. (Speaking of CK, dunno DV.)

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Interestingly, I could have demanded those duke titles as King of Rus a few years later, while they were still Pagans. Does that make sense? Don't think so.

You cannot demand a title unless the holder is your vassal (then you can demand it through the "Revoke title" option) or you have a direct claim on the title (allowing you to claim it when sueing for peace).

Your rank and their religion do not have anything to do with this. If you could demand their titles as king, then this was because you got a claim on them through inheritances, events or something else. It was not because you were a king.

 

[unmerged(31020)]

What I'm talking about is demanding those titles in a peace resolution.

When I was the Count of Pskov and had a won a total victory over the High Chief of Kiev, his dutchy rank titles didn't show up in the peace resolution table.

Later when I was King of Rus and had won a total victory over the same High Chief of Kiev again, I was able to demand all his duke titles, as it imo should be. I was still Orthodox, he was still Pagan, I still had no claims on him. The only thing that had changed was my rank.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

What I'm talking about is demanding those titles in a peace resolution.

When I was the Count of Pskov and had a won a total victory over the High Chief of Kiev, his dutchy rank titles didn't show up in the peace resolution table.

Later when I was King of Rus and had won a total victory over the same High Chief of Kiev again, I was able to demand all his duke titles, as it imo should be. I was still Orthodox, he was still Pagan, I still had no claims on him. The only thing that had changed was my rank.

As far as I understand the game you should not have been able to demand any duke level titles unless you had claims on them. Nothing else. There are no special rules for kings as opposed to counts (none that I know of).

So you either observed a bug or you missed out on obtaining the claims on those duke level titles.

 

[unmerged(31020)]

As far as I understand the game you should not have been able to demand any duke level titles unless you had claims on them. Nothing else.

As far as I understand, I should be able to demand Christian (creatable) titles from religious enemies without a claim, regardless of my or their rank.

No matter which way around it's supposed to work, it's inconsistent and therefore most likely bugged.

 

[elDrastico]

no, it doesn't work that way