How to Fix DA from Being Broken OP

[Black_Shade]

DA have always been ridiculously OP in every iteration of the game because of their insane growth rates. With 2.2 this became an even bigger problem, because pop growth rate is king. The issue is the decent growth rates for both the organic and robotic pops. The last sentence suggests a rather obvious fix.

I think the easiest solution to the DA is to make them more like the Borg. Remove their ability to build robots, and make them work as an organic/cybernatic hybrid gestalt consciousness. You could give them bonuses for each assimilated species, something like +3% output/species (or whatever is appropriate for balance). This could also apply to combat- maybe you get +3% fire rate, range, speed, and +5% shield recharge rate/species. You could even have them basically start off with syncretic evolution, already having two species as drones to let them start off with specialized pops.

Let them keep some of the other gestalt bonuses, such as immortal rulers/leaders and starting off with cybernetic leader bonuses. Then lock their ascension path to bio.

This would give DA a bit of a unique playstyle and make nihilistic acquisition actually really good for them if they can nab a bunch of different species in the early game, and aid their anemic growth. Their growth rates would be the lowest in the game, even with cloning vats from bio ascension, but their pops would be much better than average as you get the production bonus for number of assimilated species and also the normal gene modding benefits. Particularly their combat stats would be better than every other species.

 

[Faesar]

I also always thought that it would be nice if they were seriously limited in their research capacity. Since they might lack the capacity for creative thinking. They would rather get new technologies by assimilating other empires (Each assimilated pop brings a piece of a techology). But the current system does not allow to really implement that idea I think.

 

[Urza1234]

I also always thought that it would be nice if they were seriously limited in their research capacity. Since they might lack the capacity for creative thinking. They would rather get new technologies by assimilating other empires (Each assimilated pop brings a piece of a techology). But the current system does not allow to really implement that idea I think.

I think thats pretty doable actually.
1. Firstly there are a billion on_actions for transferring ownership of pops, planets, etc.
2. Use those on actions to trigger an event with a random_list. Create a very long weighted list of options using to add a pop_flag to each transferred pop identifying which tech that pop comes with.
3. overwrite the action.65 event, which handles assimilation, to include some script that adds tech progress upon assimilation, according to the pop_flag and the assimilation type.

Should be pretty easy, the real headache is all the techs involved.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

No thanks. I'm rather attached to my insane cult network operating out of the sun-scorched husk of Sol system, using repurposed and suborned military automatons to bring the light of THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN to organics and shackling them to its blinding glare.

 

[Black_Shade]

No thanks. I'm rather attached to my insane cult network operating out of the sun-scorched husk of Sol system, using repurposed and suborned military automatons to bring the light of THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN to organics and shackling them to its blinding glare.

The problem is that DA are game breakingly OP, and have been since they were implemented. It's very hard to tweak them in ways that won't impact normal ME with how the game currently works.

 

[Less2]

Maybe DAs should only be cyborgs, no robots allowed. Robot pops conquered assimilate to cyborgs the same as biological pops do. It'd still be a bit OP in that you get genocider total war without purging the pops, but from a base, passive economic standpoint it would stop DAs from spiraling out of control on growth.

 

[Molikroth]

Weren't people just upset that Machine Empires were under powered in 2.2? I don't generally play DAs myself but I have a feeling nerfing one of the MEs after they just got buffed in the beta patch may go over... poorly.

 

[Drinko]

I think DA should be be the result of a failed synthetic ascension, where all biological pops become mindless slaves to their new AI overlord, which controls them through the neural implants they voluntary put in their brain. So in other words there isn't any fully robotic pops in a DA empire.

 

[Black_Shade]

Weren't people just upset that Machine Empires were under powered in 2.2? I don't generally play DAs myself but I have a feeling nerfing one of the MEs after they just got buffed in the beta patch may go over... poorly.

DA != ME. DA have always been OP. With much needed buffs to other MEs in 2.2.5, DA aren’t just OP they are game breaking. They’re banned in every MP game for a reason. The buffs to ME in general were perhaps a bit too much, but they were so weak before I prefer them how they are now to that.

But DA.... yeah. I don’t see how anyone can enjoy playing them. You can just face roll your keyboard and win right now; they are so much better than any other build and it’s not even close.

 

[Black_Shade]

Maybe DAs should only be cyborgs, no robots allowed. Robot pops conquered assimilate to cyborgs the same as biological pops do. It'd still be a bit OP in that you get genocider total war without purging the pops, but from a base, passive economic standpoint it would stop DAs from spiraling out of control on growth.

I mean, that’s basically exactly what the OP said

 

[LeanneKaos]

I also always thought that it would be nice if they were seriously limited in their research capacity. Since they might lack the capacity for creative thinking. They would rather get new technologies by assimilating other empires (Each assimilated pop brings a piece of a techology). But the current system does not allow to really implement that idea I think.

Eh, I don't really see them inherently lacking in 'creative thinking' (at least not any more than any other gestalt empire would be.) They're obviously inspired by the Borg, perhaps with some nods to the Cybermen of Dr Who as well, and neither of those species really had that problem.

Weren't people just upset that Machine Empires were under powered in 2.2? I don't generally play DAs myself but I have a feeling nerfing one of the MEs after they just got buffed in the beta patch may go over... poorly.

DA's were pretty much the exception to the rule on that, largely because they weren't affected at all by one of the major issues MEs had (early game pop growth) due to their organic half. The MEs got much-needed a boost to pop production, but the DAs got it as well and they... really didn't need it at all.

I'm sort of in agreement with the OP here: cutting their robot-production would solve a lot of their balance issues, while at the same time bringing them closer to the sources that inspired their type. At the very least, the production rate should be tweaked down.

DA != ME. DA have always been OP. With much needed buffs to other MEs in 2.2.5, DA aren’t just OP they are game breaking. They’re banned in every MP game for a reason.

I don't do MP, but I was under the impression that was mostly because of their total-war CB?

(I think any species which has "diplomatic penalties" as part of their balance equation is going to be problematic in MP anyway.)

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

The problem is that DA are game breakingly OP, and have been since they were implemented. It's very hard to tweak them in ways that won't impact normal ME with how the game currently works.

Cool. Come up with an idea to fix them that doesn't take away the fun of using robots alongside cyborgs.

 

[Ciderglove]

Virtually all the posts in this thread have a huge number of Disagrees, yet no one has posted a substantial rebuttal. Why does everyone disagree that Driven Assimilators are overpowered?

 

[Typee]

Virtually all the posts in this thread have a huge number of Disagrees, yet no one has posted a substantial rebuttal. Why does everyone disagree that Driven Assimilators are overpowered?

Yes it's weird, I thought everyone agreed that DA are insane.

Anyway I don't think DA in particular need a fix so much as the whole population growth system. I don't like the "planets are baby factories" system right now and I wish your population growth wasn't so proportional to the number of planets you own. Whatever solution fixes that would apply to DA balance too.

 

[Subcomandante]

The fix:

1. DA cyborgs cannot reproduce.
2. DA can bombard-steal pops and assimilate them.
3. DA can of course also assimilate conquered planet pops as normal.
4. DA get a modest fire rate bonus.

Or they get research points with every stolen pop our defeated ship, after all they add not only your biological but also your technological distinctiveness to their own...

 

[LeanneKaos]

Virtually all the posts in this thread have a huge number of Disagrees, yet no one has posted a substantial rebuttal. Why does everyone disagree that Driven Assimilators are overpowered?

While there's probably some out there who think they're fine, I would imagine the bulk of disagreement is more about the proposed fix than the notion that they're above the power curve.

Well they do get a boost in growth rate, but then more colonies do give a higher boost to growth rate then any current bonus to the actual growth of DA (or any other empire). They do have some disadvantageous which makes it harder for them to get good trades with other empires.

Harder, yes - but not impossible. Contrast to the other empire types that have an inherent total-war CB: Purifiers and Swarms are cut off of trade completely, and Exterminators can only trade with other robots.
Not sure how relevant that is to MP games though.

And then also the Civic Mechanist lets one ie. start with both organic and robotic pops.

You might say that Empires with the Mechanist Civic also have - in the same way as the DA - "double growth" from the start, ie. the separate growth for organic and robot pops means that - with the same actual growth rates - they only need half the amount of colonies than empires without robots (or without organics) to produces about the same amount of new pops in the same timespan.

True, but there's a few key differences:
1) They have the same growth rate on the organic side, but the DA (now) starts with double the machine production as the Mechanist.
2) DA does not suffer the initial growth penalties of a new colony. Their organics grow at full speed, and their admin building comes with (now 2) replicators. The Mechanists get the nerfed growth until they upgrade the admin building, and have to wait to unlock the first building slot in order to build a Robot Assembly Plant.
3) DA doesn't get the New Colony migration pull - which nominally offsets the slower initial growth of a new colony, but at the cost of growth elsewhere in your empire. This is most keenly felt in the early game, where colonizing two or more colonies can practically bring the homeworld growth to a standstill for a regular empire, while the DA can just spam colonies and have full growth from the start.

Also, DA robots start with a full set of traits while the Mechanist robots start only have the mechanical trait until they unlock more advanced forms. DA organics *also* come with a full set of traits (which can more easily be minmaxed: there's a couple negative traits that have 0 affect on a gestalt, leaving you with more points to spend on the positives) and come with the Cybernetic trait as well - which would otherwise cost an Ascension Perk to unlock, alongside the costs of the project to complete.

 

[hoylemd]

What if the biological drones were just built the same way as the regular ones? Keep everything else the same, but they're not building 2 pops at once everywhere.

 

[Derp]

what if:

a. DAs don't get the extra robot growth jobs
b. DA cyborgs grow normally, but at reduced rates (similar to how the new colony penalty works, multiplying the base growth)

the idea would be that they would have modestly slower total growth compared to regular machine empires or org empires with stacked growth bonuses; without TW and assimilation they would slowly fall behind other empires, but with aggressive expansion they can surpass them.

it would also, thematically, really put the "driven" into driven assimilators

 

[Little Red]

If DAs were totally unable to engage in diplomacy with other empires much like the genocidal empires, *and* got a substantial threat rating by default like the genocidal empires, that might be a start.

 

[nikkythegreat]

If DAs were totally unable to engage in diplomacy with other empires much like the genocidal empires, *and* got a substantial threat rating by default like the genocidal empires, that might be a start.

Yeah, but that would basically give them tje same flavor as exterminators.