How to expand outside your kingdom without fabricating claims?

[TheFeudalBavarian]

Hi,

I just started playing CK2 a few weeks ago and love the game. Very upset about myself not having picked that one up already many years ago. Anyway, I spent quite some time on the CK wiki and watch youtube tutorials. So far I only played in Ireland with the 1066 start date. I was able to become King of Ireland and unite the kingdom several times. This usually takes about 20 years and I do it with the first or second generation. Depending how things go (especially succession) I end up with many vassals or almost none (after big revolts after succession). Anyway, that is were my problems and many failed attempts of trying to expand beyond Ireland (Wales or Scotland) start. So I have a few clarifying questions in regards to expansion.

1. Using courtiers with claims to a county in either Wales or Scotland: I invited people with de jure claims to a specific county. I can then declare war in their name to win the county for them. I also understand that they will only be my vassals if I first land them in my realm, otherwise they will be independent after I win the war for them. So far so good. I landed a bunch of Welsh and Scottish courtiers with claims. But then I get a bunch of inheritance warnings that I might loose those counties. I don't know how to react to that. First, is this approach good? Second, how to deal with the succession warnings?

2. Marrying off dynasty members counts (or rulers in general) in regions where I want to expand to. And then, getting rid of all heirs in front of them until they are the last one in line. That only works with the child of my married off daughter, right? What would happen if my daughters husband is heir and he has a tragic accident, would she become my vassal? What if I marry away male members of my dynasty? how does it work in that case? Also, when we speak of dynasty, we only talk about direct bloodline, son/daugthers and grandchildren, correct? Or does it also involve nephwes and cousins?

Thanks for your help. I feel like I missing the full grasp on this aspect of the game.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Here's how claims work.

1. Title holder dies and provides inheritable claims to all his kids. The top three of whom get strong claims that can be pressed anytime. Unless it is elective, in which case no strong claims whatsoever. Also note in Open (Muslim) they all get strong claims.

So your goal is likely to marry into kids of the title holder, and then a generation later pressing claims with the offspring (preferably now your kin.)

2. Your realm gains land only if you press a claim for any tier title for you or your heir. So only ever go for same or higher tier titles for your heir.

3. For lower tier title land gain, you gain land only if

3A. Your kin presses the claim
3B. Your claimant is already your vassal (so they own land.) Being in you or your vassal's courts does not count.
3C. The title is a de jure territory of your title.

4. When it comes to inheriting foreign lands (what you seem to be attempting with princesses.)

4A. Make sure the inheritor or his/her heir is your vassal and has a same or higher tier title.
4B. If your duke vassal has a duchess vassal as a wife and you don't want to give the heir a duchy, make sure the duke from your realm dies first.

What happens in 4B. Is that vassals keep allegiances to their primary title. If a new title comes in that is same or lower tier, they will keep their allegiances to you, since you are the liege of their primary title.

If a higher tier title comes in though, your vassal will adopt that title and what allegiance he owes to that (not you,) so you lose land.

 

[TheFeudalBavarian]

Here's how claims work.

1. Title holder dies and provides inheritable claims to all his kids. The top three of whom get strong claims that can be pressed anytime. Unless it is elective, in which case no strong claims whatsoever. Also note in Open (Muslim) they all get strong claims.

So your goal is likely to marry into kids of the title holder, and then a generation later pressing claims with the offspring (preferably now your kin.)

2. Your realm gains land only if you press a claim for any tier title for you or your heir. So only ever go for same or higher tier titles for your heir.

3. For lower tier title land gain, you gain land only if

3A. Your kin presses the claim
3B. Your claimant is already your vassal (so they own land.) Being in you or your vassal's courts does not count.
3C. The title is a de jure territory of your title.

4. When it comes to inheriting foreign lands (what you seem to be attempting with princesses.)

4A. Make sure the inheritor or his/her heir is your vassal and has a same or higher tier title.
4B. If your duke vassal has a duchess vassal as a wife and you don't want to give the heir a duchy, make sure the duke from your realm dies first.

What happens in 4B. Is that vassals keep allegiances to their primary title. If a new title comes in that is same or lower tier, they will keep their allegiances to you, since you are the liege of their primary title.

If a higher tier title comes in though, your vassal will adopt that title and what allegiance he owes to that (not you,) so you lose land.

Thanks, this is quite complicated....**scratchinghead**

 

[Thrake]

Pressing claims for titles that you are the de jure ruler will make the claimant a vassal of yours even if he's not a dynast. Say you're France, you press a claim for the county of Paris, he'll be vassal no matter what.

Marrying kids: you marry males to get claims (children will be of your dynasty so you will get dynasts with claims), and you marry females for alliances/prestige.
Eventually if you manage well your dynasty you will rack up dynasty prestige which will make your kids very valuable to marry for the AI, that will let you marry male children directly to landed female rulers, and female children can also be married matrilineally to relevant nobility for yet more claims.

You don't need to murder entire families, you'd need to target small families or have really high intrigue or abuse the system. I personnaly like to have lots of kids, marry them all around to any relevant noble family I can find which feeds me with a large pool of dynast claimants. Over that large number of claimants, many will not be possible to be pressed (ennemy has too many levies, daughter has a weak claim that can not be pressed (NB: you can press female claimants in regencies so murdering the ruler so his son inherits can help... Unless it's agnatic succession),...). However, some will be possible and interesting to press. Just need to keep a close eye on the claim alert, and remember that you get no warning from strong claims.

Remember that inheritance warning are not all relevant. You need to manually check that. Sometimes it's half-relevant, ie. you might have inheritance issues if another ruler dies and your claimant/vassal inherits it, ie. it might show up for a 16 years old ruler with his brother as heir but you can safely assume that a few years later both will have kids which will remove the inheritance alert.

 

[TheFeudalBavarian]

Remember that inheritance warning are not all relevant. You need to manually check that. Sometimes it's half-relevant, ie. you might have inheritance issues if another ruler dies and your claimant/vassal inherits it, ie. it might show up for a 16 years old ruler with his brother as heir but you can safely assume that a few years later both will have kids which will remove the inheritance alert.

Ok, I kinda start understanding. So, as soon as I land him and then also press his claim back home, he will become count of that county and be my vassal. The inheritance warning should disappear in that case as well. is this true?

 

[Bernard95]

Naughtius touched on most of this, but here's an old comment of mine from r/crusaderkings:

Fabricating claims is the most basic way, but it's very luck based. You could have a chancellor with 20 diplo sit there for years and one with 8 diplo pop three in a row. Bear in mind that you should resend and/or move around your chancellor every now and then to ensure they haven't been bribed. If they've been bribed, they'll literally never get it.

Second is to find claimants, invite them over, land them, and then press their claim. Bring up the title screen and check the claimants tab periodically. Note that you can't do this with counties until you're a duke and if you happen to have a dynasty member as a claimant you don't have to land them first.

Third is to play the marriage game. All children get some form of claim when their parents die. Sons will only rarely agree to matrilineal marriages (unless you've tricked them by inviting them to your court, in which case they have to agree to the marriage because you're their liege), so you're generally stuck working with women's weak claims. Odds are if you marry enough daughters of the target family, eventually conditions will be right to press a weak claim (you can only press weak claims when you have regencies, female rulers, or someone else is already trying to press their claim). Perfect scenario is if you see an old ruler with older daughters and underage sons.

Fourth is through holy wars. Only good if you have conveniently located infidels/heretics around. Would recommend you play around Iberia/Southern France, or Anatolia. You're struggling in the British Isles because it's all Catholic.

Fifth is through Jade Dragon, which gives you a few new CBs to work with if you've got some combination of gold and piety/prestige to burn. At least when you're just starting out a Border Dispute or two can get the ball rolling.

Sixth is papal claims. These are uncommon unless you're fairly virtuous, have a couple of hundred piety, and your target is hated and/or is a child/woman. Rather amusingly, if your target happens to be a female child odds are the Pope will wholeheartedly go along with it.

Seventh is expanding internally by revoking titles. While it's not a huge deal tyranny-wise just to revoke a title outright, remember you're entitled to the counties of your capital duchy. You just need a few people to agree with you on that and back your plot to revoke. Revoking by plot is tyranny-free.

Eighth is by fabricating claims on your liege via plot. I'm not 100% sure what unlocks the option, but typically I find if you see something a woman or child on the throne you'll see it. Right click on their title's coat of arms (just like how you would do a revoke plot) to get it going, but do note that it can be a pain in the ass to get the support and then afterwards you'll roll a dice if the plot is successful or not. It can be a fun way to turn the tables on your liege.

Beyond that, try to plan your conquests so you can later take advantage of de jure claims. If you fabricate or inherit County A and B, form the Duchy so you can get County C.

 

[mrinku]

In regards to Papal stuff, getting your target excommunicated can be a good first step. That tends to make the Pope dislike you for a while (don't abuse it), but now the target has a big sign on their back saying "Please attack me" and will have troubles with their vassals to boot.

Papal Invasions are another way to grab land when the Pope loves you and hates the target, but you have to be weaker to qualify for one. So make sure you have reliable, at peace, strong allies as well as a decent bankroll for mercs. Or launch it when the target is in trouble due to other wars (which is how William the Conquerer did it. Just don't expect his event troops...)

There is also vassalisation. If you can arrange things so that same-culture characters inherit counties that are within your dejure zones and are independent, you will usually be able to get them to join up. Some areas of the map (Ireland, Scandinavia etc) are easier for this than others.

 

[Thrake]

Ok, I kinda start understanding. So, as soon as I land him and then also press his claim back home, he will become count of that county and be my vassal. The inheritance warning should disappear in that case as well. is this true?

Been a while since I toyed around that. From the top of my head, you will get an alert when somebody is in line to inherit two titles in two different realms from two different people. However birth and death before the death of the title holders will affect succession line so an alert now might not be an issue later. So you need to manually check the alerts to see if there are potential issues, or how big the issue is.

From the top of my head, you risk losing titles in two situations:
- the heir stands to inherit two titles of the same tier: the heir will stay the vassal of whichever liege he inherits first (his mother is your vassal, father is vassal somewhere else, mother dies first you win a free county if his father dies before the heir)
- the heir stands to inherit one title in your realm that is of lower tier than the title in your realm: I'm not sure on that one but I think that the higher tier title determines whoever keeps the vassal in the end, in that case even if the heir inherits a county in your realm first, you will lose it when the heir inherits a duchy somewhere else.

Of course you can bypass all of this by passing the law that prevents you to lose vassal titles through inheritance.

 

[GundamMerc]

I just use matrilineal marriages literally all the time.I might not get the territory myself, but my dynasty spreads everywhere until I start getting entire kingdoms and empires inherited by my kin.

 

[TheFeudalBavarian]

Well, last night I played a new game with Ireland. I united the Ireland within 20 years, most vassals were quite happy. Then soon after, my very old first generation ruler (Murchard?) died. Succession did not go that well....every vassal started to get upset with me real fast. At the same moment my chancellor fabricated a claim for a welsh county right across the ocean. I was in the middle of forcing my claim when ALL vassals rebelled against me. I won the rebellion and the county in Wales. In a rage of revenge I revoked all titles from all my vassals. Of course now with 20 counties I am far above the demesne limit. I need to give 14 counties away. Now to the big questions: I have no adult heirs, almost no dynasty members and people don't like me much. Who should I land with the 14 counties? What would you do?
Thanks.

 

[jwalche]

First of all, if you are king, try focus on inviting those with a ducal claim so you can get more counties with pressing a claim.

1. If his foreign relatives are not landed and are not likely to be landed, then just ignore the warning. They will simply become your new vassal after inheriting the titles.

If his foreign relative is landed, but in lower tier than his claiming title, then kill him after you win him the title. The foreign relative will inherit the title, and become your new vassal. Your realm is gaining what the foreign relative had as well.

If you are indeed going to loose the counties with death of your new vassal, then you should revoke his titles before he dies. If you have just invited a claimant, he would be happy for your gift and a barony or county title you just gave him. He also has never seen your tyranny before. Declare the war on the same day you landed him, and imprison him on the same day. After winning, the war, revoke his new title.

Or, you could land him to a city before pressing his claim. Then his titles will not be inherited to a foreign relatives.

2. If you marry away your male dynasts, his son may inherit the mother's title. Then you can make him your heir to merge two realms. If he doesn't then you can invite him and press his claim on his dead mother's titles. Your dynast doesn't have to be your direct decedent to inherit your titles, if you choose inheritance law that allows it.

 

[Serenity84]

I have no adult heirs, almost no dynasty members and people don't like me much. Who should I land with the 14 counties?

You could search for people who have claims on stuff you want elsewhere and give them a county. Then you can press their claims.

Otherwise you can look for commoners with good stats and traits and give them stuff. Doesn't really matter too much

 

[BigHamster]

Well, last night I played a new game with Ireland. I united the Ireland within 20 years, most vassals were quite happy. Then soon after, my very old first generation ruler (Murchard?) died. Succession did not go that well....every vassal started to get upset with me real fast. At the same moment my chancellor fabricated a claim for a welsh county right across the ocean. I was in the middle of forcing my claim when ALL vassals rebelled against me. I won the rebellion and the county in Wales. In a rage of revenge I revoked all titles from all my vassals. Of course now with 20 counties I am far above the demesne limit. I need to give 14 counties away. Now to the big questions: I have no adult heirs, almost no dynasty members and people don't like me much. Who should I land with the 14 counties? What would you do?
Thanks.

It does not really matter who you give land to, just avoid ambitious characters, prefer content characters(for the start, not true in general case).
This is core gameplay of CK2, its not that hard to get land its hard to keep it, every time your main character dies be ready to struggle, first 5-15 years of rule should be devoted to making your realm stable. Make shure your biggest vassals are not bigger then you, make shure you alwais have at least 300-400 cash for mercenaries when your character is old or gravely ill.
And about expantion, people forgot to mention 2 pretty lucrative ways of expanding: holy wars ( you can declare wars on bordering infidels for entire duchy ) and papal claims ( if you have 300+ piety and your character is virtuous just go to religeous screen and ask pope for claims, all available sinners will be listed and you can ask strong for duchy title claim). Also for a small duchies you can do unjust borderconflict war to make shure you control most of de jure duchy and usurp the title, then next war just take all de jure lands. And last, dont worry to much about titles drifting away, when that happends you get a claim, so you can just grab them back in a war all togather.

 

[TheFeudalBavarian]

OK, thanks for all your help. I think I now understand how to expand well enough. I continued my game yesterday and was able to conquer also Wales and make myself king of Wales. Going for Scotland next!

 

[Yxklyx]

When inviting claimants over from other realms to press claims for there are some things you should look at:

1. younger claimants are always better
2. claimants with children are always good

Also, if the claimant is of a different religion than you (and you can religious revoke), you'll be able to revoke his title - after a 5 year truce I think.

You don't always have to land them if you think you can offer them vassalization after you press their claim. This gets trickier and you need to know the offer vassalization criteria. For instance, if it's a county in your dejure realm and he's the same culture/religion as you and you are a King - and he can't be at war when you make the offer.

 

[Larva]

OK, thanks for all your help. I think I now understand how to expand well enough. I continued my game yesterday and was able to conquer also Wales and make myself king of Wales. Going for Scotland next!

Be mindful of creating additional Kingdoms - all non-primary titles will incur -20 relation penalty with de-jure dukes of that kingdom. And if you are Emperor you can then create vassal kings ofc