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Arie90

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Currently I am playing as the USA. The war has kicked in in nov. 1942...and I really don't know if I have enough troops to attack Japan. How can I determine how many armies/corpses I should make? I am used to Europa Universalis and it's very useful ledger where you can simply see the army strenght and manpower (I know it's very gamey). Can you tell me how I can figure out the strenght of the japanese army? My IC is 450 so I can build a lot of stuff, but I want to properly manage it, not just rushing in creating troops. Do you have any tips on how to wisely create troops?
 

Didz

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Currently I am playing as the USA. The war has kicked in in nov. 1942...and I really don't know if I have enough troops to attack Japan. How can I determine how many armies/corpses I should make? I am used to Europa Universalis and it's very useful ledger where you can simply see the army strenght and manpower (I know it's very gamey). Can you tell me how I can figure out the strenght of the japanese army? My IC is 450 so I can build a lot of stuff, but I want to properly manage it, not just rushing in creating troops. Do you have any tips on how to wisely create troops?
So, far I haven't found any reliable intelligence option that allows a player to legitimately determine the strength of another country. Which is a bit odd really as one would have expected that to be the primary question that intelligence would seek an answer to. But at the minute the only reliable method is to cheat and use 'tag-switching' to take a sneak-peek at your opponents set-up. There is a useful report that breaks down the composition of your Army, Navy and Airforce into numbers of Divisions and Ships or Aircraft Types.


If you can close your eyes and ignore all the stuff you aren't entitled to see, then that report would be about the closest one would expect from an intel report on an enemies strength. It just a shame its not available legitimately from your intel.


As far as force planning is concerned my own approach when playing as the USA was largely driven by my operation goals. So, I wanted every Island to have a reasonable garrison and a decent air defence and naval patrol capability. Then I built up a reasonable amphibious invasion force to take more islands.


At sea I just adopted a simple policy of 'You sink 1 and I build 2 to replace it.' This seemed to work better than just building random ships, although I did discover early on that Hornblower was right and 'You can never have enough destroyers' and also that every CV needs four LC to protect it. The only information I would have liked but never had was 'How many carriers does Japan have?' as I wanted to match them in carrier numbers, but without cheating I had no way of telling how many they had left at any point in time.


Airforce strength was a little easier as it's largely dictated by the number of airbases you have, which in turn depends on the number of islands you possess. The Air Map is quite useful for planning the placement of airbases as it provides a visual guide on the current level of air cover you have.


In Europe and other mainland operational area's I've based my force planning on an assessment of combat width per front. E.g. I want enough troops to occupy and defend the front I expect to be defending, plus additional forces to provide a strike force for every offensive operation I plan to make simultaneously. Basically, four line divisions per province plus X mobile shock forces capable of making a breakthrough or countering an enemy one.
 
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confinement

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Advanced technology can give you a very good picture of the enemy. Build a radar station, and advance it up to a level 10. Research the heck out of encryption, decryption, and radar. Send spies into enemy territory and set them to "military intelligence". Fly over enemy territory and take a peek. I'm sure I'm missing some ways.
 
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Didz

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Advanced technology can give you a very good picture of the enemy. Build a radar station, and advance it up to a level 10. Research the heck out of encryption, decryption, and radar. Send spies into enemy territory and set them to "military intelligence". Fly over enemy territory and take a peek. I'm sure I'm missing some ways.
True! But none of those method gives you a concise intel report on the strength of a countries armed forces. What one needs is something similar to the summary screen provided for your own army/navy/airforce strength but for a selected nation. Adjusted according to the standard of your intel capability of course.
 

confinement

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True! But none of those method gives you a concise intel report on the strength of a countries armed forces. What one needs is something similar to the summary screen provided for your own army/navy/airforce strength but for a selected nation. Adjusted according to the standard of your intel capability of course.

Well, when I play this game, it's a sort of re-creation thing going on. If I'm playing the USA, I don't think that I'm supposed to exactly know what the enemy has in store for me. Fog of war and all of that.
 

Didz

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Well, when I play this game, it's a sort of re-creation thing going on. If I'm playing the USA, I don't think that I'm supposed to exactly know what the enemy has in store for me. Fog of war and all of that.
Well thats the point really. If one is playing as the USA one ought to have this information on hand as it was common knowledge historically.

The USA actually had a special Military Intelligence Unit formed specifically for this purpose. It consisted of two branches, the Japanese American Unit composed of Nisei (second-generation Japanese Americans who were mostly trained as linguists and were tasked with translating incoming intelligence reports and documents, and the German-Austrian Unit based at Camp Richie and generally referred to as 'The Ritchie Boys'.

'The Richie Boys' were mostly German-speaking immigrants to the United States. They were predominantly Jews, who had fled Nazi persecution. Once the USA joined the war they were primarily utilized for interrogation of prisoners on the front lines and counter-intelligence in Europe because of their knowledge of the German language and culture. But like their colleagues in the Japanese-American Unit their primary goal was to produce an accurate assessment of the military and industrial strength of Germany.

The simple fact is that it's very hard to hide this information from another nation, even an enemy, as there are simply too many ways to obtain it. In fact, trying to hide it requires special measures by the country wanting to keep it secret, rather than particular skills or technology from those wishing to analyse it, and most nations just didn't bother.

In practice, it was much easier to inflate the numbers than hide them, so we see examples of the British inventing new fictitious formations including the use of inflatable tanks and aircraft to represent them on German photo-recon sweeps and fake radio traffic. But trying to hide the existence of something is much harder, if not impossible and wasn't really attempted except on a few very rare occasions.

The Germans for example tried to hide the construction of their Deutschland class battleships, but then made the mistake of inviting a Soviet Naval delegation to view the construction sites, and even explained in great detail to them how these ships were intended to be employed to defeat the Royal Navy, and this was prior to 1939.

Likewise, the Japanese tried to hide the construction of the battleship Yamato, but limited their efforts to trying to disguise it's size and strength rather than its existence. It's simply not possible to hide the existence of a battleship.

However, despite their efforts the Japanese-American Unit had reported as early as 1936 that “Japan had designs for warships of 45,000 to 55,000 tons,” and that she “would not hesitate to build ships of at least 35,000 tons” and “would not revert to the Washington restriction on tonnage or its limit for guns.”

So even without concrete knowledge the USA were aware that any new Japanese battleship was going to be big. The reason for this being that the Japanese knew the exact strength of the US Battleship fleet and the construction capability of the USA naval shipyards, and had determined that they could not achieve parity in numbers with the USA in battleships, but could build bigger. This was mainly because the size of US battleships was restricted by their need to pass through the Panama Canal.

On a similar note, the Germans might have liked to keep the size of their air force a secret prior to 1939, but couldn't do so simply because they had to order components for their aero engines from Britain. Therefore British military intelligence was able to calculate the strength of the German air force based simply on the number of components purchased and the German companies they were delivered to.

The Germans likewise knew pretty much the exact strength of the British bomber force simply by monitoring the number of optical lenses the British were ordering from German manufacturers for the manufacture of bomb sights. Once again, you could deliberately order more and thus create a false impression of strength, but you can't build something without the components to hide its existence.

So, what the game lacks is that summary of military intelligence that gives the player an overall estimate of an opponent's strength, and thus 'for a strategy game' oddly denies players the information they need to plan their strategy for force composition. There is actually a whole level of intelligence missing and all the game simulates is the operational intelligence that deals with the secondary question '...and what is it doing?', which fits in with the general concept of 'The Fog of War' you mention.

At the moment the only way to get this information is by 'Tag-Switching' and taking a screenshot of the AI nations 'Allied Force Comparison Report'. Which is fine except that it's 100% accurate, which is really more than it should be. Something like this report, but with a varying degree of inaccuracy based upon the efforts being made by the owning nation to hide the information would be ideal.
 
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Kovax

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In the 1940s, there was often relatively little information available about enemy troop locations and strengths, unless you had units in contact with them or else an active underground working with you (rather than playing you against the enemy for their own ends, as sometimes happened). Historically, despite having cracked the encryption techniques of both the Germans and the Japanese, the Allies were still unaware of a lot of enemy troop movements and strengths, even though they had sizable teams dedicated to piecing all of the scattered tidbits of information together into a more-or-less comprehensive whole.

In the game, the espionage screen should show all "known" enemy units, but that's by no means an accurate picture, even if you dedicate and prioritize 10 spies for that purpose. The range limitations on radar mean that it only shows a very small part of the map, and the Pacific is a very big ocean. In essence, it depicts the "fog of war" fairly well, aside from not showing enough information about enemy ground units that your forces are currently engaging or positioned adjacent to for extended lengths of time.

As posted previously, one could tell the number of ships or aircraft to some degree of accuracy, but ground troops were much harder to track.
 

Didz

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In the 1940s, there was often relatively little information available about enemy troop locations and strengths.
I agree, but in this instance we are not talking about operational intelligence. What's missing is the higher level stuff which would have been common knowledge to pretty much everyone, even your enemies.

So, for example. The USA may not have known that the Japanese Navy was about to attack Pearl Harbour, and how many carriers were going to be involved, but they certainly knew how many carriers the Japanese navy had, and they probably knew how many more they were planning to build. Likewise, the Japanese knew exactly how many carriers the USA had, they just didn't know where they were, and as it happens they got it wrong.
 

confinement

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I agree, but in this instance we are not talking about operational intelligence. What's missing is the higher level stuff which would have been common knowledge to pretty much everyone, even your enemies.

So, for example. The USA may not have known that the Japanese Navy was about to attack Pearl Harbour, and how many carriers were going to be involved, but they certainly knew how many carriers the Japanese navy had, and they probably knew how many more they were planning to build. Likewise, the Japanese knew exactly how many carriers the USA had, they just didn't know where they were, and as it happens they got it wrong.

The initial post in this thread raised the question of determining the strength of the enemy. The game allows you to do that. To have the exact lineup of enemy strength and composition is not only gamey, but also A-historical. There were far more intelligence failures in WW II than successes. Especially early on. Radar and spies will give a player as much information as was realistically available in 1939.
 
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Didz

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The initial post in this thread raised the question of determining the strength of the enemy. The game allows you to do that. To have the exact line-up of enemy strength and composition is not only gamey, but also A-historical. There were far more intelligence failures in WW II than successes. Especially early on. Radar and spies will give a player as much information as was realistically available in 1939.

I agree in terms of operational intelligence the game gives you far too much information compared to history. You are for example told exactly which ships you are fighting and which you hve sunk. Which wasn't normally known at the time.


However, oddly enough it tells you virtually nothing about the overall strength of the enemy, which is something you would know historically. The classic example being the battle of Britain where the Germans had a pretty accurate assessment of the overall strength of the RAF, but found it impossible to equate the operational intelligence reports from their pilots and agents with what they knew to be true. Basically, according to the comparisons they shot down the entire RAF about three times, and the British had similar problems which is one reason why the intelligence services on both sides started fitting gun camera's.


It's that basic knowledge that’s missing in the game e.g. The enemy have 10 x Interceptors, we have 25. You get a comparison report that shows an Allied Strength Comparison, but nothing that shows a worldwide strength comparison.
 
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Actually, one would have a pretty accurate assessment of enemy strength until the shooting started. After that, you don't know for certain how many planes were damaged and how many were destroyed. Was that ship sunk, or did the bomb hit only do superficial damage? What happened to all of those submarines? An undercover agent might provide information in a specific case here or there, but not in most cases. What was once "known" is now uncertain. That is "fog of war". The game overdoes the fog of war in the buildup phase, when you could still send people openly into another country to observe, but it depicts the actual war period well enough.
 
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Well, in the actual war itself aerial reconnaissance and "human intelligence" (ie spies and saboteurs) were the main way to determine what the enemy was up to. It was pretty normal for single planes to fly over at VERY high altitude with specialized camera equipment to snap photos of whatever was going on and where fortifications had been made. You can still do that in the game as attack a tile with the ground attack mission will reveal all of the units in a tile - or all of the ships in a port, and then you can just retreat the unit if you're afraid of it getting shot up. Although RADAR and *just* flying over with decryption levels above the enemy should give you a solid idea of what you're dealing with.
 

Didz

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I don't really have an issue with the way operational intelligence is depicted in the game. If anything you get told too much, but I appreciate that it's a concession made to make the game more interesting for the player.

What's lacking is the initial force assessments that the player needs to do their strategic planning. The information is known but there is no report that the player can use to access it. So, for instance there is no way to compare naval strengths of the various factions, or to find out who has the most tanks and aircraft. The only way to get access to it is to tag-switch and unfortunately that provides the player with too much accurate information.

What's actually needed is something like the 'Allied Comparison Reports' provided by the statistic's tab, but with a degree of inaccuracy based upon the efforts made by the subject country to disguise it's strength. Without that information it's pretty impossible to plan you own force strategy and justify any serious operational plans.
 

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What Didz says times a million.
Hate that I can't get a rough estimate of the number of divisions facing me on a particular front/theatre. This certainly was information every major country had a large "team" working on daily.
 

Didz

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What I've actually begun doing to overcome this lack of reasonable knowledge is using the TAG-Switch cheat but only on an old saved game. So, basically the information obtained is randomly inaccurate, depending on how volatile the nations strength happens to be, and thus how unreliable a real force estimate is likely to have been. I don't put to much thought into how out of date the information is, I just open the saved game list an click on the last save visible in the list (its usually somewhere around 12 months out of date.) It just means that any recent production or heavy losses are not included and adds a small degree of uncertainty to the figures obtained.

The only thing it doesn't is allow for the possibility that the target nation is deliberately trying to hide or inflate its strength. But in practice that option isn't included in the game anyway. So, for example there is no production option to build inflatable tanks, and aircraft, or construct fake air and naval bases.