How to deal with ridiculous Ming in MoH?

[heliostellar]

How do people deal with Ming as a land-based foe? I've played Russia and India games where this ridiculous mega-guarantee they get on everyone keeps ruining the game. Sometimes I can work around it, by indirectly DOWing allies of the intended target but this is getting tedious.

I was told that blockades work if you are in the islands, but what about when they send their infinite manpower deathstacks waltzing over the Himalayas or Siberia?

I have seriously considered disabling MoH, but I would be sacrificing the diplomacy macrobuilder and the historical ages/Golden ages.

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

I would suggest not disabling MoH. It's almost harder without it, as you have no way of exploiting the mandate and causing Ming to either implode or become paper. They still have their money and army and everything, it's just much much harder to break them.

 

[heliostellar]

I would suggest not disabling MoH. It's almost harder without it, as you have no way of exploiting the mandate and causing Ming to either implode or become paper. They still have their money and army and everything, it's just much much harder to break them.

Possibly, but I am not even trying to attack them directly. I am just trying to attack one of the many, many countries that it turns into tributaries.

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

Well in that case just become a tributary yourself. Yeah it sucks having to pay Ming off, but if it lets you get some legitimate conquest without having to fight Ming in every war, it's well worth it.

 

[heliostellar]

Well in that case just become a tributary yourself. Yeah it sucks having to pay Ming off, but if it lets you get some legitimate conquest without having to fight Ming in every war, it's well worth it.

They won't let other GPs become tributaries anymore...

 

[SaucyBaron]

The way I did it around 1620-1670 in my ideas guy/ Indian ocean trade empire game was invade up from where I colonized in Indonesia and dowed their tributary Malacca, I seiged them down while blocking the peninsula with a good general deathstack until their manpower was zero and they had a ton of war exhaustion, I then moved up seiged some of their southern provinces taking the island connected via straight, I then chained wars by dowing other tributaries taking a little land each time and ruining their mandate with devastation and their slowly shrinking number of tributaries, eventually they were stuck with no mandate and I could afford to seige them up directly.

It was ideas guy so I had Prussia tier military ideas ( though in retrospect not as min maxed as they could've been) you could do the same thing easier with someone like oda.


This was in 1.23 so before they got nerfed into the ground in 1.24, now it's impossible for Ming to maintain mandate after they lose a war (which they will if you just pick defensive land and grind them down with ticking warscore from a aieged tributary) and they mingsplode on their own like in the good old days.

Honestly it feels like Ming needs a buff again, mandate just screws them so hard.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Declare and assault down a tiny tributary, declare on 4+ other tributaries, white peace first tributary.

 

[bbqftw]

Since Ming will randomly break tributary with you once you get big (not sure if bug or WAD), I've been forced to come up with some ways at circumventing the Ming beast.

TMIT's OPM blitz works. This is especially hilarious when you start allying Ming's tributaries and calling them against other tributaries since you this causes immediate termination of the tributary and with clever play you can really truce lock Ming into neighboring a blob that will eat away at mandate. You can also cede away your allied provinces to farm revanchism. Everybody wins except your intended victims.

Other neat things are cobelligerent tributaries allied to non-tributaries (this bypasses Ming).

What gets really annoying is when Ming rivals you and starts allying up your potential food..

 

[TheAzureLiger]

Afaik Ming is a paper tiger. I've fought Ming a few times both as Manchu and Russia and while their numbers do get intimidating, once it comes down to it they're actually pretty weak. You can fight twice your number of Ming troops (especially with low mandate) and not have a hard time.

 

[Bibor]

How do people deal with Ming as a land-based foe?

Attack Ming directly? When fully sieged down, take as many border provinces as you can, plus declare a few wars you want on its tributaries.

 

[creativitypersonified]

What is usually do is not attack tributaries unless I am strong enough to anihalate Ming. With Russia you could get a border with them on the north and not pay tribute. This will eventually make their mandate drop which means they are now useless at dealing with anything they can't stack wipe.

 

[Canute VII]

*Scorched earth* <cough> *in high dev provinces* <cough>

 

[Dakka]

Get a border with them, then stay at peace and let their Mandate tank. Once that happens, they become wet tissue paper

 

[makaramus]

*Scorched earth* <cough> *in high dev provinces* <cough>

I must agree devestation annihilates them and their precius mandate

 

[heliostellar]

Finally figured out how to deal with the broken tributary system:

 

[Dakka]

Finally figured out how to deal with the broken tributary system:

Because fighting Ming without their handicap is much easier

 

[heliostellar]

Because fighting Ming without their handicap is much easier

No, the point is, I don't want to fight Ming every time I want to fight someone east of the Ural Mountains.

 

[Dakka]

No, the point is, I don't want to fight Ming every time I want to fight someone east of the Ural Mountains.

You’re actually more likely to fight an even stronger Ming. Without MoH and EoC, Ming becomes an 1100 Dev giant that can expand with no repercussions

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

Yeah trust me, Ming without MoH is a ton harder. Makes Indochina and Tibet area starts incredibly difficult. I did a Nepal game and ended up in four different wars with Ming, barely making it out alive each time.

 

[Elminster12]

Ming is now much easier to deal with. Maybe even too straightforward.
If you're a horde, you'll want to sock up as much development as possible as quickly as possible, because you ideally want to go to war while your military bonuses are strongest.
If you're not a horde, you'll need to be pretty big, but the principle is the same: you want your army to better than theirs(because it's probably smaller).
Either way, wait until after they've passed a reform to break your tributary relationship, as their mandate will be weak and they'll suffer military penalties. Ideally, you want to be big enough that you not being a tributary will keep their mandate down. Again, you'll be outnumbered, but their armies will be trash and they won't be able to hire many(if any) mercenaries, so pick your battles and you'll eventually wear them down. Hordes can additionally trigger the Nomadic Frontier disaster for Ming, which makes them even weaker.
Once you win one war, then you're in the clear. Their mandate basically won't recover, and they'll probably fall into a death spiral. The Mandate is still a poisoned chalice(at least until you've gathered up some tributaries of your own), but the AI doesn't know this, so one of your powerful competitors will likely take it and tank themselves.