how to Deal with pagans

[etnoash]

I play vanilla ck2 with the lavest patch.

I have a couple of questions about pagans/tribes I hope you can help me with!

1. With the latest patch, holy wars against Baltic pagans tend to end with them converting to Christianity instead of you winning their lands, which was the intent. Is there any way to plan against this?
2 how do you make tribal vassals useful as a feudal lord? Is this possible?
3 how do you convert a tribe into a feudal holding? Is it worthwhile?

Thanks,
Cap-M

 

[Sirrobert1]

1. Pegans won't convert if they are zealous
2. By helping them feudalize
3. They'll turn feudal (assuming they have a feudal lord) once they reach lvl 4 hillfort. Not that expensive building

 

[Alcadizzar19]

1. The intent is to convert them or take their land if they refuse to accept our Lord and Savior. Them converting is a successful war.
2. If tribals are of your culture and religion they will upgrade to feudal within a few days by decision. If they are not then you can usually revoke for free, then you put some of your own in and they upgrade.
3. If you are tribal then you have to have a feudal lord or your capital holding a maximum level fort or city and max tribal organization. If you simply own a tribal holding but are feudal then you can't upgrade to my knowledge, got to hand it out and then they will. It's absolutely worthwhile to have feudal rather than tribal holdings. Tribals can raise tons of light infantry but light infantry get crushed by heavy infantry which come mostly from castles.

 

[sigeena]

Do take note that the decision for upgrading tribal to feudal also checks for religion. So unreformed pagans still cannot upgrade tribal to castle, even if their liege lord is already feudal.

I had that problem a while back, while playing Hvitserk, probably the only feudal Germanic, along with Hasteinn in TOG.

 

[Thrake]

3 how do you convert a tribe into a feudal holding? Is it worthwhile?

Being tribal increase your demesne limit by a lot and allows to upgrade buildings through prestige, which in itself has little use (unless you're germanic where you can convert 1k into a powerful CB). So early on, you can quickly raise massive levies from a single county (like 2k+) and you can own more counties than feudal. It's faster to develop because prestige comes in abundance unlike gold. Also tribal vassals are best too if you can keep them happy enough to join your wars (much more troops).

The only weak point is that you don't make money (but you don't need that much so long that you spend it on money making building instead ot the troops one) and your holdings are easy to siege, which is easile compensated by your large armies. As the game goes, feudal slowly develop their castles and eventually get more troops (less than you but higher quality) so that they outmatch you.

So my strategy is to develop well tribal holdings (prestige buildings = more troops after going feudal so easier transition) while hoarding gold through raid and trying to get the best out of my hudge armies early in. Then when I start to feel weak compared to feudals (if you take your time you'll eventually loose to smaller heavy infantry armies with your large but weaker light infantry armies though picking the right leaders is a key in here too), I feudalize and start with fat savings to build more castle towns that will eventually fund troop buildings.

 

[etnoash]

Thanks for your replies, much appreciated =)

@Alcadizzar19 , while them converting does sort of count as a successful war (giving piety) it is not really what I am after, which is their land, so that I can form the Scandinavian Empire --- @Sirrobert1 makes a point with zealous tribal rulers, they are not going to convert to get out of a losing war, so I'll have to look out for zealous rulers. Any other ways of taking over tribal lands with the holy war casus belli? Any shortcuts with those pagans, or is it claims and family business as with winning over catholic land?
@sigeena , just to make sure I understand you (I don't have TOG DLC): Does the tribal province in question and its ruler need to be of the same religion as their king (in my case catholic) for them to be able and/or willing to upgrade tribal to castle? (just 1 castle I suppose and some empty holdings?). @Thrake , that all sounds very cool, and if I get TOG at some point I will definitely play a tribe.

 

[Alcadizzar19]

Thanks for your replies, much appreciated =)

@Alcadizzar19 , while them converting does sort of count as a successful war (giving piety) it is not really what I am after, which is their land,

War for God is not about what you are after, them converting doesn't "sort of count as a successful war" it is a successful holy war. There are now less pagans in charge of people in the world; Christendom is bigger, the holy war was a success. Yes, you would prefer to take the land for yourself, but conversion is one of the "risks" of an offensive holy war against pagans. You can always pursue county claims instead if you prefer a safer avenue of expansion, well I mean you'll have to do claim wars now but you could have fabricated claims in the first place too.

 

[StarSword]

You can get around the conversion problem by abusing succession mechanics. If a tribal pagan realm turns Christian or Zoroastrian (they can't convert to Judaism to end a holy war), it retains elective gavelkind, and if they go Muslim they'll switch to open, which either way means the realm will create strong claimants on succession. Invite, land, press claim, and as long as you outrank the claimant you'll keep him as your vassal.

 

[brifbates]

You can get around the conversion problem by abusing succession mechanics. If a tribal pagan realm turns Christian or Zoroastrian (they can't convert to Judaism to end a holy war), it retains elective gavelkind, and if they go Muslim they'll switch to open, which either way means the realm will create strong claimants on succession. Invite, land, press claim, and as long as you outrank the claimant you'll keep him as your vassal.

Sure but it requires you have excess land to grant them in the first place. It also tends to mess up your internal borders (some people care about that sort of thing a lot) and a quick death has the potential to lose your land to an outside heir in your former target's realm.

 

[StarSword]

Sure but it requires you have excess land to grant them in the first place. It also tends to mess up your internal borders (some people care about that sort of thing a lot) and a quick death has the potential to lose your land to an outside heir in your former target's realm.

All of which have easy solutions.

• On landing:
  • Build a castle somewhere to stick your claimant, then give him to the local count as a vassal so he doesn't hate you for controlling his de jure guy.
  • Do a quick war if you can fabricate a claim or have a county conquest or holy war CB.
  • Provoke a revolt and revoke a title.
• On internal borders:
  • First of all, get over it. Messed-up borders are a good thing because each misplaced title means -25 opinion from its de jure owner to its controller. Vassals that hate each other are less likely to join factions.
  • If it bugs you so much, provoke revolts and revoke and redistribute the titles. Or if you're iqta or have Imperial Administration you can revoke duchies for free without incurring tyranny. Iqta also lets you transfer vassalage without tyranny.
• Inheritance:
  • Assassinate the would-be heir if he's a ruler outside the realm.
  • Non-Conclave: Pass High Crown Authority.
  • Conclave: Pass the ban on external inheritance.
  • Provoke revolts and revoke and redistribute the titles. When you re-grant them they'll be switched to your own inheritance law.