How to buff Espionage Ideas?

[Pellucid]

1. Game needs an "auto re-send spy" option, wherein when your spy gets caught it just goes right back again as long as you keep the diplomat free. Not a buff per se but quality of life change.

2. "Support rebels" needs to be more consistent. Hell, maybe it should just automatically cause the selected rebel group to revolt after a certain amount of gold is spent supporting them (150-200 maybe?). I've spent decades supporting revolts in provinces and gotten literally nothing for my investment. Perhaps then the espionage idea could reduce this gold threshold to 100-150 instead of giving increased revoltrisk.

I think the key to making espionage better is to make it more consistent. I also think the espionage ideas should focus less on giving you powers nobody else gets and more on making you substantially more effective with the powers that exist.

 

[Jomini]

An easy way to rectify this is to put soft or hard caps on the stacking effects from every additional person trying to cause a stab loss. So, in your example, every person beyond the first to engage in that offensive action will reduce the time it takes to result in a stab loss for the targeted country but with diminishing returns. Alternatively, we could put, for example, have a maximum of 30% reduction in time for stab loss to occur (with say, each country beyond the first to reduce the time by an additional 10% so that at maximum, only four countries would have an effect when engaging in this action). To avoid wasting other countries' diplomats, we can disable this offensive action when four countries are already involved in this action against the target.

Also note that this is largely a MULTIPLAYER issue since most AIs do not take up the espionage tree and those that do tend to take it very, very late. Just to give an example, these are some of the nations that take the espionage tree:

France - takes it as the last idea
Denmark - takes it as the last idea
Austria - takes it third to last
Brabant - takes it second to last
Brunswick - takes it as the last idea
Holland - takes it as the last idea
Hungary - takes it as the last idea
Ireland - takes it second to last
Hansa - takes it second to last

I think I've seen Lithuania take it 4th or so, though it might have been Ukraine or somebody else in that area and it was definitely 1.3 or earlier. I have had games (in 1.4) where I spent the end of the game with near constant Reputation Sabotaged thanks to three or more AIs with Espionage.

In any event, with MP you do have to consider the scenario where somebody spends the rest of the game with all the maluses. Say I'm Spain and you are England; you see me as the biggest competition so you go espionage and nerf me the rest of the game (stab loss as often as possible or whatever is harshest), the Dutch and Scandinavia go after me because I'm big colonial competition. Italy wants take Sardinia and Sicily so they tank me too. Is the game going to be fun to play with the maluses going full tilt for the rest of the game? I don't know, but in the past I've seen a lot of the spy missions get house ruled out because they just aren't that fun.

The problem I see with a lot of "spite the enemy" options is that you have to balance for two very different settings: when the player is looking to use Espionage as the only one using it and when the player is being hit with a lot of espionage. What is balanced in one scenario appears to be unbalanced in the other prima facie. Rather than do all the balance work for a dynamic environment, why not tip espionage towards things that hurt my target by helping me? Espionage giving a tech modifier changes the differential between you and I, far more than if I just get MP burnt by spies. Chart knowledge spread would make it more viable to get into colonizing without having everything good gone by the time anyone who doesn't open Exploration gets to the New World.

If we make support rebels a viable method to take down strong players (or even slightly inconvenience them), then it will be exceedingly prone to abuse against the AI.

 

[randomscribbles]

Also, your suggestion is beyond weak. Stealing 12 random monarch points a year is not worth using a diplomat on.

Well the tree also gives you a diplomat to do it with. And 12 MP per year over a 375 year game is 4500 MP total. Compare that to innovative's 5% (30 MP) discount for each of the less than 100 total tech levels- 3000 MP total. Administrative's coring discount is worse than that in real numbers in 99% of cases (though admin points are admittedly the most prized of the MP much of the time). Plus this damages a competitor. Perhaps choosing the MP category when you send the spy would make it more attractive though.

 

[Jorlem]

Maybe add in the ability to mess with other nations treaties? Damaging actual alliances would be the most difficult, and should require sowing discontent first, or at the same time, but if you can 'convince' a nation to revoke military access to another nation, that could be a very powerful effect, in the right situations.

 

[Emmanuel_M]

This is not the problem. Espionage clearly has nothing to do with military so it should not be in the military group. Just because most players, including myself, have usually many military points to spare does not mean that espionage should be a military idea.

Eqpionnage has plenty to do with the military tree, since, for OPM, espionnage and diplomacy are an affordable alternative to keeping an army as big as their neighbours.

 

[vinc3nt23]

How about an assassinate option that increases the death chance of the target country's head of state by x2 per year?

 

[Empreorpoef]

bump

anyway,

I got an idea the other day. What about one of the ideas make so you can fabricate two or more claims on the same country at the same time?

 

[Garevel]

I would like to use fake-armys if my administration is not infiltrate - a ruse.
Would add a little more spice to combat and give use to Infiltrating

 

[Jaol]

No.

Espionage is not a military idea and it should not reduce stability cost or have anything to do with leader maneuver.

Why not? Internal spy networks rooting out dissidents/propaganda aimed at your own population could be represented with a Stability bonus. Leader maneuver could represent your spy/scout networks allowing your armies to avoid obstacles/ambushes, take better roads, know when the enemy is leaving port, etc..

 

[MiniaAr]

Well if Espionage is going to change to something, I would rather think it'll go as a DIP group since:

• Actions involved use a diplomat and the group gives an additional one,
• Espionage really has a feeling of shady Diplomacy, more than shady administration or shady military,
• Gameplaywise, it would give another interesting DIP group than Diplomacy for land nations non-interested in colonisation and without the need for many merchants.
• You could then swap if with Expansion in the Admin tree, which will in turn help heavy colonial/trade/naval nations with their DIP points.