How to beat native nations

[Stigandr]

Yes I know it might not seem like the natives are that hard to beat... I haven't played in a while, so I figured I'd do a Spain run to catch up on changes. I have colonial nations all over the place, and the majority of them keep declaring war on natives and getting beaten. While hilarious, it's also quite annoying. My CN in Mexico just lost several provinces that I'd only just won for them from Britain, against the Itzi, and then as soon as they lost that war they declared war on Wichita. They're now getting beaten up by that OPM.

I can't enforce peace because my CN is the aggressor. So how do I stop them from being such morons?

 

[brifbates]

I can't enforce peace because my CN is the aggressor. So how do I stop them from being such morons?

Make them strong enough so it isn't moronic? Subsidize the crap out of them, keep tariffs low, drive trade into their area, build buildings for them, and so forth. Alternatively, preemptively destroy natives yourself when a CN is about to border them (or even earlier since you can claim anything you can see in the new world).

In the case you describe, fabricate and declare your own war on Wichita...

 

[hwoosh]

Yeah, my strategy is always to feed CNs all the natives in their region as soon as the CN forms to hit the 10 province bonus ASAP. It's basically free tariff + trade + gold income for very little effort.

Though I still play on 1.11.4 when the Exploration finisher CB still existed. I imagine it isn't as convenient now that that's gone.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you have all the DLC, CNs are broken and you will have to do conquests for them yourself until there is almost nothing of substance left in the natives. Meanwhile, you will have to pay off thousands of ducats of debt.

Even CNs with nothing to core, no direct interaction with war opponents and only true faith, right-culture provinces will rack up hundreds of ducats of debt because reasons (more like because edicts and building forts on Caribbean islands to no purpose).

 

[brifbates]

Even CNs with nothing to core, no direct interaction with war opponents and only true faith, right-culture provinces will rack up hundreds of ducats of debt because reasons (more like because edicts and building forts on Caribbean islands to no purpose).

I've never seen this, then again I don't tariff the crap out of my CNs and generally don't get the Caribbean because it's all annoying islands to deal with (I also generally play rnw), let the ai have that headache, I'll take 'murica...

However, there is a purpose for the ai in building those forts, you just don't agree with it. If the province is connected to a fort it has to be captured for the land to be taken so the ai tries to make that happen for most/all their provinces. See this forum for the rage having to siege all those island forts to take them causes some players...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've never seen this, then again I don't tariff the crap out of my CNs and generally don't get the Caribbean because it's all annoying islands to deal with (I also generally play rnw), let the ai have that headache, I'll take 'murica...

However, there is a purpose for the ai in building those forts, you just don't agree with it. If the province is connected to a fort it has to be captured for the land to be taken so the ai tries to make that happen for most/all their provinces. See this forum for the rage having to siege all those island forts to take them causes some players...

No.





Caribbean has never fought anybody at all, and this will be 2nd time I'm paying off debt there. Peru declared bankruptcy, despite that I paid off its loans twice and that it had 0 OE with 1/2 true faith, 1/2 pagan when it came into existence.

La plata accrued debt without actual fighting as well, same with Louisiana. Mexico at least saw a little fighting and conversion, but have also required > 1500 ducats of debt payments. In all, before 1600 colonial nations that have fought no old world AI have accrued > 5000 in debt, including thousands on a couple that never even fought natives.

The only other new world than mine belong to France (my ally), in Canada. These nations all have sub-50% tariffs, most have sub-25% since I don't spend monarch points to raise them at all this run.

The AI putting up thousands of debt between them in this scenario is inane and inexcusable. It's abject game throwing and no amount of playing pretend WRT forts "protecting" 2 islands or even just 1 (it later built a fort on one of the non-strait province islands) can justify Caribbean being > 300 ducats in debt with no fighting, conversions, or overextension in its entire history.

Game throwing to be annoying is not sound play. It isn't even reasonable play.

 

[evilcat]

Haha. Good old CN smashed by natives. Happens everytime.

What i do: Just fabricate on native mexican nation and declare conquest on your own. Whatever the result is Aztec-Mexican war, you can annex or return cores as much as you want.
Unfortunetly when it comes to Aztec/Incas (and to some degree Louisiana) there is no half way, when you establish CN you just need to beat natives to ground, and declare war like the clock.

 

[Sharples88]

I've never seen this, then again I don't tariff the crap out of my CNs and generally don't get the Caribbean because it's all annoying islands to deal with (I also generally play rnw), let the ai have that headache, I'll take 'murica...

However, there is a purpose for the ai in building those forts, you just don't agree with it. If the province is connected to a fort it has to be captured for the land to be taken so the ai tries to make that happen for most/all their provinces. See this forum for the rage having to siege all those island forts to take them causes some players...

Even if it was the tariffs, it shouldn't be bankrupting the nation. Debt is understandable, given very, very high tarrifs, but not becoming bankrupt over them. If an AI is building forts despite losing money, something is wrong. It's not a matter of agreeing, it's literally destroying it's economy even more. I've seen my own bankrupt colonial nation trying to colonize. Sometimes they'll go bankrupt even without high tarrifis and no wars, which is very puzzling and I'm not even sure how the AI is managing it.

 

[Kastomoño]

Hey, atleast look at the bright side. Little to no liberty desire.

 

[Stigandr]

So it sounds like there's no way of coming in on the CN's side in the war - I just have to declare my own? Wichita is inland, past all of Mexico CN's territory, so I'll have to see if I even can fabricate on them, because I definitely don't want to no-CB declare on them...

 

[ElGranCapitan]

So it sounds like there's no way of coming in on the CN's side in the war - I just have to declare my own? Wichita is inland, past all of Mexico CN's territory, so I'll have to see if I even can fabricate on them, because I definitely don't want to no-CB declare on them...

If you have Exploration completed you can fabricate on every province in a colonial region, regardless if you control an adjecent one

 

[blusarge27]

So it sounds like there's no way of coming in on the CN's side in the war - I just have to declare my own?

Yup, pretty much. I only do this if I see my CN losing, which sadly does happen.
I really wish Paradox would give us some way to help out our CN's in their war, either with an option to "join war" or at least some form of condottieri system where we can supply them some of our troops. Something.

EDIT: building on the rent out troops idea:
Maybe instead of renting out troops for ducats like normal condottieri, it could be tied to tariffs. So I send my CN, let's say, 6k troops for an increase in tariffs of 5% for 10 years or something, without increasing liberty desire. You want more troops? Then give us more tariffs.
Or send them for free and have it decrease liberty desire, which slowly ticks down, similar to the "events, province defections, etc" system we already have for subjects.

 

[Nidhoegger]

If you have all the DLC, CNs are broken and you will have to do conquests for them yourself until there is almost nothing of substance left in the natives. Meanwhile, you will have to pay off thousands of ducats of debt.

Even CNs with nothing to core, no direct interaction with war opponents and only true faith, right-culture provinces will rack up hundreds of ducats of debt because reasons (more like because edicts and building forts on Caribbean islands to no purpose).

Not true. While in the beginning, CNs indeed need your support (gifting them gold, paying debts, protecting them), after a short while they become self-sufficient. In my latest run, my CNs where able to field 35.000 men armies with no problem, beating up all the other CNs and natives out there on their own.

 

[evilcat]

I thinkt that if you join your cn nation war it will be the leader, which means bad peace deal.
Alternative is start own war, or wait for war to end, end then dow one for reconqest.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not true. While in the beginning, CNs indeed need your support (gifting them gold, paying debts, protecting them), after a short while they become self-sufficient. In my latest run, my CNs where able to field 35.000 men armies with no problem, beating up all the other CNs and natives out there on their own.

Not true.

Later in the same game I had colonial Peru with 100% true faith land and no OE still racking up 1000 ducats of debt. It made an army, yes. However it still racked up debt while doing/fighting almost nothing.

That shouldn't be surprising, given the picture I already showed with Caribbean. If that can get into debt despite 20 ducats/month income and no actual opponents, any CN can get into debt.

 

[Kastomoño]

Not true.

Later in the same game I had colonial Peru with 100% true faith land and no OE still racking up 1000 ducats of debt. It made an army, yes. However it still racked up debt while doing/fighting almost nothing.

That shouldn't be surprising, given the picture I already showed with Caribbean. If that can get into debt despite 20 ducats/month income and no actual opponents, any CN can get into debt.

I think that's an issue with CN's not getting gold income but thinking that they do. How the caribbean got into debt is something only the AI knows though.