How to assimilate in European countries ?

[Enzo]

I was used to play South American minor, but this time I've tried with France on VIP:R01, as I do not believe the point I want to raise is linked with VIP, I post here.
I'm in 1871 and I've just win the war against Prussia, an event trigger that gives me some land around Rhineland. I, now, have around 2 millions North German which i want to assimilate. I've decided to convert them to craftsmen or clerk in order for them to seek job in main France (there is no factory in Rhineland), this way they'll move by small pack and can be assimilated (at least i thought). In 2 years, i think I've manage to assimilate around 20000 but after I let the game run for 15 years and no more assimilation take place.

any idea why ?

My own theory is to say that while non-cultural pop are moving in small group they can be assimilated but after they "aggregate" to each other and POP is then too big for assimilation to take place.

Did I miss something ?
Do you have tips to proceed to assimilation of this minority ?
Is it possible to mod the size of POP that can benefit from assimilation ?
I must add that France is a democracy but national value is currently order, not sure if this has an impact on assimilation.
thanks

 

[Neslepaks]

I assume you have a full citizenship party in power.

Couldn't you try to convert fewer pops at a time so the fragmented pops have time to assimilate before scores of them arrive at the same place, thus preventing assimilation?

 

[Dysken]

The unit sizes allowed for assimilation are far smaller in Europe. Also if they are another religion than your own it is drastically decreased. Take a look at the vickywiki IIRC there are some charts covering that.

 

[Enzo]

fewer at a time : yes, good point. I'm going to try this, thanks.
yep, I've already read the wiki, and indeed it's these numbers that i would like to increase through modding but I'm afraid they are hardcoded.

I've full citizenship and they are of the same religion so limit should be 2000 for craftsmen and 300 for clerk if they work. I find it a bit low, as i notice that pop when they migrate usually are around 700 "per pack".

what about your experience of assimilation in Europe ?

 

[OHgamer]

Yes assimilation rates are hardcoded and I believe the rates of assimilation are lower for Europe to reflect the hardening of nationalist identities in Europe in the 19th C - you didn't have all that much assimilation among peoples, especially if there were linguistic differences between them. See for example the continued maintenance of Breton identities in France or Welsh identities in Britain in this period. Granted they were small parts of the population, but a core indeed never did completely assimilate, which would become the core basis for the revival of regionalist/nationalist movements in Brittany and Wales in the 20th C.

 

[Dysken]

Speaking of Bretons, why is the majority culture in Bretagne french? 100% French IINM? I think this goes for RIP too.

 

[OHgamer]

Speaking of Bretons, why is the majority culture in Bretagne french? 100% French IINM? I think this goes for RIP too.

Biggest issue in VIP is lack of statistics from the period that would make putting in a breton POP historical. Just default making a certain % breton would more than likely miss the mark either too much or too little.

 

[Enzo]

Yes assimilation rates are hardcoded and I believe the rates of assimilation are lower for Europe to reflect the hardening of nationalist identities in Europe in the 19th C - you didn't have all that much assimilation among peoples, especially if there were linguistic differences between them. See for example the continued maintenance of Breton identities in France or Welsh identities in Britain in this period. Granted they were small parts of the population, but a core indeed never did completely assimilate, which would become the core basis for the revival of regionalist/nationalist movements in Brittany and Wales in the 20th C.

Although, I agree with you from an historical point of view. I believe that the game engine should handle non historical situation like the one I describe. A full citizenship policy in France 1871 isn't historical at all. But in game it can happen.
Well, this is the only criticism i would make on this game which is by far the best that Paradox has ever produced. Even, if I would like to see a Vic 2 based on the new game engine, which, IMO can better handle this kind of situation, where event/actions can trigger on a given situation. We'll be able to try to recreate a "USA like" country in Europe. Also, I would like to add that having played Paradox's game since EU1, I've seen the constant progress made in game, and it's easy to have this arguement on game engine in 2007 for a game produced in 2003/2004 (can't reckon)

well, still interested in tips to improve assimilation rate in Europe

 

[OHgamer]

Although, I agree with you from an historical point of view. I believe that the game engine should handle non historical situation like the one I describe. A full citizenship policy in France 1871 isn't historical at all. But in game it can happen.
Well, this is the only criticism i would make on this game which is by far the best that Paradox has ever produced. Even, if I would like to see a Vic 2 based on the new game engine, which, IMO can better handle this kind of situation, where event/actions can trigger on a given situation. We'll be able to try to recreate a "USA like" country in Europe. Also, I would like to add that having played Paradox's game since EU1, I've seen the constant progress made in game, and it's easy to have this arguement on game engine in 2007 for a game produced in 2003/2004 (can't reckon)

well, still interested in tips to improve assimilation rate in Europe

The thing is assimilation is meant to represent the merging of minority pops that settle within larger blocs of national population culture, not the spread of a national culture into new areas where there are no members of that culture otherwise. It's not meant to represent the overspreading of one national culture into new areas unless you have large numbers of national culture pops settling in the region to acculturate the region.

I guess the point is unless you had massive French migration into the Rhineland, you'd most likely not have the Germanophone POPs becoming Francophone under any circumstances. The fact that a large minority of Germanophones remained in Alsace after two centuries of French rule from the mid-1600s until the defeat in 1870 would be a good illustration of the limits to assimilation in a European context.

Now German populations moving to the Paris region, yes that should be a groups subject to assimilation and transformation into French culture, under the right political policy circumstances. But if France takes Cologne in wake of 1871, I don't see the logic that the region should by default become French culture within a few years, unless you were to have French migration into Cologne to establish a national culture presence.

 

[Enzo]

Fully agree.
I'm well in the case of German POP moving to inner France to seek job (craftsmen & clerk) and thus subject to assimilation. In no way, I want Cologne to speak French tomorrow morning or even in 20 years.
Even, in the first case I find it very hard to get these migrants POP to be assimilated, and all advices are welcome.

 

[lila-laune-bär]

Yes assimilation rates are hardcoded and I believe the rates of assimilation are lower for Europe to reflect the hardening of nationalist identities in Europe in the 19th C - you didn't have all that much assimilation among peoples, especially if there were linguistic differences between them. See for example the continued maintenance of Breton identities in France or Welsh identities in Britain in this period. Granted they were small parts of the population, but a core indeed never did completely assimilate, which would become the core basis for the revival of regionalist/nationalist movements in Brittany and Wales in the 20th C.

I believe you could say that in Vienna you had assimilation on a large scale. The population continously increased from 300.000 in 1830 to more than 2 million in 1910. About half of the people who lived in Vienna were immigrants from non-german regions, a third of them was born in Vienna (and thus would include also children of non-germans in Vienna, I think) and the rest came from german speaking countries, mostly from Lower Austria.

If you look into a telephone book in Vienna, you'll find a lot of Svobodas, Havlaceks, Nowotnys, Novaks, etc., so you see where their ancestors came from, although they don't speak a word Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, etc. In 1965 27% of the viennese population had a czech name.


It was no regular european phenomenon though. Probably the exception.

edit: My source is the data of the viennese government.

 

[Surgünoglu]

Speaking of Bretons, why is the majority culture in Bretagne french? 100% French IINM? I think this goes for RIP too.

Probably the same reason that there are no Greeks in Trabzon. My guess is that the game has so much that is hinged on ethnicity that to accurately model the mix of populations would hurt a lot of countries to an ahistorical degree.

But were the 1836 Bretons really that unassimilated?

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Probably the same reason that there are no Greeks in Trabzon. My guess is that the game has so much that is hinged on ethnicity that to accurately model the mix of populations would hurt a lot of countries to an ahistorical degree.

But were the 1836 Bretons really that unassimilated?

Where i work we have alot of French workers,most from Alcace but one is from Brest,she insists that she is Breton and not French...go figure.

 

[unmerged(42174)]

well, still interested in tips to improve assimilation rate in Europe

In the folder victoria\db there is a file called Province. Open this file in for example Word Pad and replace all ";Europe;" with ";America;" (Don't forget the semicolon ';'). By doing this, all of Europe would be treated like any American nation (not like the US because of the hard coded US handicap). Now, you can get immigrants from all over the world to your european nation (no big difference from before, there might come some chinese pops), and assimilation will be much easier. Some european countries have colonies in america, and they can be granted statehood now, but since these colonies are minor, I don't think that would ruin the game.

 

[Enzo]

Yes, this is a radical solution.

I think I've found one reason which may explain in game terms why assimilation is so difficult in Europe.
To assimilate you need small POP, and to have small POP, you need POP to migrate. I've always see POP migrate by small group of around 700 but the limit for assimilation is either 2000 for low class or globally 300 whatever parameters you have (religion, assignment) with a full citizenship policy.
Actually, I've never seen a POP of less than 700 migrates, thus preventing assimilation in most case.
If I take my original exemple with North German culture, candidate to migration in inner France will move in POP of ~700, if they are of low class and same religion they may assimilate otherwise not a chance. Of course, you can always convert POP to low class to encourage assimilation, this may work for same religion.
Actually, I don't really understand this 300 limit to assimilation I find it to be in contradiction with the fact that no POP migrate with a size less than 700.

Do you experience also POP migration with a size of ~700 ?
Any views on this ?