How the German culture should be split

[Jeltz]

Well, I speak German, and I've spoken people from Berlin, Essen, München and Wien using the very same Hochdeutsch (High German). These are only dialects and have not become separate languages like Dutch or Anglosaxon which have the very same roots as the German but have diverged much farther. Thus the game represents languages as part of a bigger culture.

The language in Low Saxony was the precurosor of what is today Low German which is more related to Anglo-Saxon than to High German. I understand merging all High German speaking groups into one but the Saxons were distinct since they spoke another language.

 

[Divi]

Fatimid Egypt is worse.

The Fatimids should probably start with very low religious authority on top of maybe splitting arabic culture 3 or 4 ways. The Shia were dealing with constant heresies at the time, with at least one druze sect that considered a previous 10th century caliph as on the level of a prophet that was very widespread (it took until the 12th century to reduce it to just a bit of Syria). It would probably also help if there was a way for the mainline religions to see themselves as just one step removed from heresy - not quite heretic but still something not to trust and a potential enemy if the religious leadership makes it so.

 

[Thure]

Well, I speak German, and I've spoken people from Berlin, Essen, München and Wien using the very same Hochdeutsch (High German). These are only dialects and have not become separate languages like Dutch or Anglosaxon which have the very same roots as the German but have diverged much farther. Thus the game represents languages as part of a bigger culture.

No! Old Saxon was a own language. Why do you don't beliefe this? Anglo-Saxon (look at the Saxon) was partly a Old Saxon dialect, if you want so. Plattdeutsch/Low German are a own Language from the Old Saxon. And yes there are dialects in the North, because not many people speak Low German. The mostly of this people speak Missingsch (A mix between High German and Low German, whats more a Dialect to High german) or High german (In the big cities the most people speak High German, I speak also High German normaly and not Low German).

(And of course... No one of this city is a Low German city... Eventually Berlin... But Berlinerish isn't really Low German, only Low German influenced. Look at this mape of modern Low German)

The language in Low Saxony was the precurosor of what is today Low German which is more related to Anglo-Saxon than to High German. I understand merging all High German speaking groups into one but the Saxons were distinct since they spoke another language.

his is the point, yes. And still if he think Low German TODAY is a German Dialect... In the Middle Ages it was a own language. It's a fact that Middle Low German or Old Saxon are own Languages. The modern Low German is sometimes near to the High German because of the centralisation of Prussia and the German Empire. Low German mostly start do died out in the 19th centurie, but at the moment they are life up again.

Also the German governement say Low German is a own Language. The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages has Low German accepted as Regional Language in Bremen, Hamburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Lower Saxony, Schleswig-Holstein, Brandenburg, Northrhine-Westphalia and Saxony-Anhalt.

 

[justin6477]

Well, I speak German, and I've spoken people from Berlin, Essen, München and Wien using the very same Hochdeutsch (High German). These are only dialects and have not become separate languages like Dutch or Anglosaxon which have the very same roots as the German but have diverged much farther. Thus the game represents languages as part of a bigger culture.

A rough map of known Germanic dialects in the year 1AD. The dark Green represents the Eastern Germanic languages (Gothic), the Blue is the Scandinavian. The Yellow to Red continuum are the Western languages. Red is where we get Frisian and English, the Orange is where we get Dutch and the original language of the Franks, and finally that yellow bit is the main body of modern German. High German is a fusion of Frankish and Elbe Germanic, not unlike how French is a fusion of Frankish and the vulgar Latin of Northern Gaul.

View attachment 69041

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Still there's not much to a point to introduce another culture as AFAIK theres wasn't any revolts based on local pride or whatnot, maybe except the saxon issue,
but still not nearly as logical as the difference between frankish and occitan.

The saxons could make sense to a certain degree, but then you'd need to change the saxons in England to anglo-saxon.



...wait i think we had this discussion on here before a zillion times, though i don't remeber the outcomes of these fruitful discussions myself. :laugh:

 

[Chlodio]

The saxons could make sense to a certain degree, but then you'd need to change the saxons in England to anglo-saxon.

...wait i think we had this discussion on here before a zillion times, though i don't remeber the outcomes of these fruitful discussions myself.

Changing Saxon to Anglo-Saxon is big challenge, think about how long it would take to change Saxon localisation to Anglo-saxon

Might be, but I don't find any thread for it.

 

[Wallain]

Changing Saxon to Anglo-Saxon is big challenge, think about how long it would take to change Saxon localisation to Anglo-saxon

Might be, but I don't find any thread for it.

I know, I tried. I mean, really. It look like two weeks and I still failed that monumental task. In the end I just abandoned the entire project.

 

[Melange_Thief]

Well, I speak German, and I've spoken people from Berlin, Essen, München and Wien using the very same Hochdeutsch (High German). These are only dialects and have not become separate languages like Dutch or Anglosaxon which have the very same roots as the German but have diverged much farther.

While you may have spoken with people from all over Germany in Hochdeutsch, that only means that some people from those areas speak Hochdeutsch. It doesn't demonstrate that other Germanic languages aren't present. A similar argument from me would be that I've spoken to people from the Navajo Nation, therefore Navajo people speak a dialect of English. In fact, that conclusion overlooks a different possibility: Other languages are spoken in these areas, and some people speak both the local language (Low German, Bavarian German, Navajo) and the primary language of the country they live in (Hochdeutsch, English). In fact, cavalier assumptions that these speech communities speak only dialects of Hochdeutsch are part of what's slowly killing these languages off, which is the main reason why I'm confronting you about this (Navajo can't be mistaken for an English dialect even if the listener is under the influence of powerful hallucinogens, so my analogy breaks down here, but there are other factors that are starting to cause language death for Navajo). To really make a judgement about whether a regional variety is a separate language, you can't have them speak Hochdeutsch with you. You have to get someone to speak to you in the regional variety, and if you find it's very difficult to understand, like how I've heard Swiss German is for Hochdeutsch speakers, it's probably a separate language.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

While you may have spoken with people from all over Germany in Hochdeutsch, that only means that some people from those areas speak Hochdeutsch. It doesn't demonstrate that other Germanic languages aren't present. A similar argument from me would be that I've spoken to people from the Navajo Nation, therefore Navajo people speak a dialect of English. In fact, that conclusion overlooks a different possibility: Other languages are spoken in these areas, and some people speak both the local language (Low German, Bavarian German, Navajo) and the primary language of the country they live in (Hochdeutsch, English). In fact, cavalier assumptions that these speech communities speak only dialects of Hochdeutsch are part of what's slowly killing these languages off, which is the main reason why I'm confronting you about this (Navajo can't be mistaken for an English dialect even if the listener is under the influence of powerful hallucinogens, so my analogy breaks down here, but there are other factors that are starting to cause language death for Navajo). To really make a judgement about whether a regional variety is a separate language, you can't have them speak Hochdeutsch with you.

This should answer all questions about "Hochdeutsch" (aka "Standard German", not to be confused with "High German", or "Oberdeutsch", a linguistic group of dialects in southern Germany) and its origins (mostly a written language until the 1800s to make sure as many people as possible were able to read your stuff).

 

[bilbo2810]

While you may have spoken with people from all over Germany in Hochdeutsch, that only means that some people from those areas speak Hochdeutsch. It doesn't demonstrate that other Germanic languages aren't present. A similar argument from me would be that I've spoken to people from the Navajo Nation, therefore Navajo people speak a dialect of English. In fact, that conclusion overlooks a different possibility: Other languages are spoken in these areas, and some people speak both the local language (Low German, Bavarian German, Navajo) and the primary language of the country they live in (Hochdeutsch, English). In fact, cavalier assumptions that these speech communities speak only dialects of Hochdeutsch are part of what's slowly killing these languages off, which is the main reason why I'm confronting you about this (Navajo can't be mistaken for an English dialect even if the listener is under the influence of powerful hallucinogens, so my analogy breaks down here, but there are other factors that are starting to cause language death for Navajo). To really make a judgement about whether a regional variety is a separate language, you can't have them speak Hochdeutsch with you. You have to get someone to speak to you in the regional variety, and if you find it's very difficult to understand, like how I've heard Swiss German is for Hochdeutsch speakers, it's probably a separate language.

While all of this is quite true, funnily enough Swiss German (and Austrian German, for that matter) are not considered separate languages, but merely dialects.

 

[Divi]

While all of this is quite true, funnily enough Swiss German (and Austrian German, for that matter) are not considered separate languages, but merely dialects.

That's mostly a matter of political definitions; Austro-Bavarian is its own branch of german dialects, while Swiss german is also part of another branch. It really depends on the person doing the defining, some would say dialect, some would say language. It's all dialect continuums and how far you can get before there's a different language. In the CK2 timeframe, Welsh and Breton are still close to being the same language, especially at game start, for example.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

That's mostly a matter of political definitions; Austro-Bavarian is its own branch of german dialects, while Swiss german is also part of another branch. It really depends on the person doing the defining, some would say dialect, some would say language. It's all dialect continuums and how far you can get before there's a different language. In the CK2 timeframe, Welsh and Breton are still close to being the same language, especially at game start, for example.

Except that it's pretty well defined from a linguistic point of view . Also, "Swiss Standard German" (this is what most Germans call have in mind when they talk about Swiss German" ) and actual "Swiss German" (a dialect heavily influenced by its Alemannic roots, and with very strong regional differences) are two different things.

 

[Tempiic]

Dutch is neither a low german nor a high german language. It has its roots in the low franconian language group.

About that dialect continuum. It is because languages do not follow borders that well. There are or were low franconian based dialects in the western part of modern germany and old saxon based dialects in the eastern part of the netherlands.

 

[Divi]

Except that it's pretty well defined from a linguistic point of view . Also, "Swiss Standard German" (this is what most Germans call have in mind when they talk about Swiss German" ) and actual "Swiss German" (a dialect heavily influenced by its Alemannic roots, and with very strong regional differences) are two different things.

That's the 21st century, with standardization, mandatory education, unification, etc.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I think this thread demonstrates why German won't be split.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

That's the 21st century, with standardization, mandatory education, unification, etc.

Ah, come on, don't just argue from your guts if you are not sure. Also, categorizing and systematizing things is typical for late 19th century scientific thinking (the age of the great encyclopedias and scientific optimism), not 21st century thinking. Finally, I am from Bavaria, so you might just believe what I have to say about German, especially if it's coherent with all scientific definitions out there

 

[Kimberly]

I think we're all arguing too much about languages. From a game point of view, it makes much more sense to ask whether it would be strange not to split up a culture. When playing the game, it would be weird if English and Scottish culture were identical--they clashed historically. Irish and Scottish are related (the same culture group), but it would also seem odd to give Ireland, Britanny and Scotland the exact same culture, hence the split.

This may just be me, but when I see the HRE as a big mass of "German"...that looks alright to me. German in the center and west, with Slavic cultures in the east, and French cultures in the west. Lumping the Dutch in with the Germans is noticeable because they are usually considered separate today, but from a historical perspective, sure, it's justified. Am I barbarian for not minding the simplistic cultures?

As a player, I don't feel there's something wrong with the game when I see the cultures the way they are. Doesn't that mean the game is doing alright?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I think we're all arguing too much about languages. From a game point of view, it makes much more sense to ask whether it would be strange not to split up a culture. When playing the game, it would be weird if English and Scottish culture were identical--they clashed historically. Irish and Scottish are related (the same culture group), but it would also seem odd to give Ireland, Britanny and Scotland the exact same culture, hence the split.

This may just be me, but when I see the HRE as a big mass of "German"...that looks alright to me. German in the center and west, with Slavic cultures in the east, and French cultures in the west. Lumping the Dutch in with the Germans is noticeable because they are usually considered separate today, but from a historical perspective, sure, it's justified. Am I barbarian for not minding the simplistic cultures?

As a player, I don't feel there's something wrong with the game when I see the cultures the way they are. Doesn't that mean the game is doing alright?

Representing all four main Celtic peoples with the same culture would of course be incredibly ignorant, as well as providing a bizarre and very noticeable mix of names. Giving the Scots and Irish the same culture and name set would be quite appropriate, though, as there were few major differences between Scots & Irish Gaelic during this period -- nor should there really be foreigner penalties between them. Ideally a single Gaelic culture would have achieved this, but it was not to be as Paradox seem to want English names for the Scots. That's a separate debate, though, and obviously it would not affect the Welsh or Bretons.

Regarding German, whilst I'd liked to have seen at least two or three main cultures (particularly to distinguish the Saxons from the Austro-Bavarian peoples) I can't claim sufficient knowledge on the subject so as to provide suggestions as to where those splits would be. On top of that, you'd need to choose which dynasties and characters should be of which culture. I certainly agree that a single 'German' culture in its own group is odd, though. I also loathe that horrible shade of gray.

As for Dutch, it should be in the same group as German. Dutch doesn't represent Frisian; though personally I just move German into the West Germanic group and recolor it. If Franks, Normans, Occitans and Italians are in the same group then I don't see why Anglo-Saxons, Germans and the Dutch shouldn't be... let alone all Arabs and anyone from the Steppes.

 

[Ruwaard]

In general I'm not in favor of doing so.

@ Divi: Dutch developped out of Low Franconian/Frankish. Nonetheless Dutch would be better off grouped with German. Frisian OTOH can (stay) grouped with English. However merging the 'Western' and 'Central' Germanic groups might be better, since both are actually grouped as Western Germanic.