Why? How I have say... There werehuge differents between North and South. And the North speaks Low German a own language.
How the German culture should be split
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The Vicky cultures are a mess without logic.
Low German is a dialect of German, not a language.
So far I think it should be Saxon, Bavarian, Schwabian, Franconian, Ostmarker. When Pomeranian (Central Germanic) and Prussian (Central Germanic) would be being melting pots.
Wrong. Look at the history of the Language. Old Saxon and Middle Low German are not a dialect of Old High German or Middle High German. To bad some modern people in Germany still think it's only a dialect. Missingsch would be dialect.
Austrians aren't different enough from Bavarians today, they shouldn't be their own culture before the history that made them unique happened. A unique culture for Brandenburg seems a waste when those areas are slavic for half the game so Saxon would be fine in the north east too.
To be honest high/low german would be fine and mirror Frankish/Occitain which is already a split in the game.
To be honest high/low german would be fine and mirror Frankish/Occitain which is already a split in the game.
Yeah. It would make the HRE more unstable, the slightly lower relations might not seem much but they can help balance the behemoth a bit.
Don't forget Rhenish! Don't you think the inhabitants of a region with one of the largest rivers in Europe would have a rather unique culture (which they do)?
Also, Prussian would be the Pagan Prussians, in Prussia, who are NOT German-cultured. They're Baltic. They only became German after the Teutonic order ethnically cleansed the area and converted everybody.
Pommeranian can't be Germanic, it's West Slavic.
Start to think in game terms and historically !
I see no reason to put it in. There was no civil war or differences based on cultural differences inside germany.
If you think otherwise please proof me wrong. The saxons are in as pommeranian/slavs.
..but i won't stop you discussing this.
I see no reason to put it in. There was no civil war or differences based on cultural differences inside germany.
If you think otherwise please proof me wrong. The saxons are in as pommeranian/slavs.
..but i won't stop you discussing this.
Start to think in game terms and historically !
I see no reason to put it in. There was no civil war or differences based on cultural differences inside germany.
If you think otherwise please proof me wrong. The saxons are in as pommeranian/slavs.
..but i won't stop you discussing this.
Ehhhhm... Saxons are not pommerian... You confuse modern Saxons with Old Saxons. Olsd Saxons life in the today Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen). They aren't slavs, they are Germanic.And I have already say, there was a civil war, because of differnt culture. The Saxon Rebellion. No Saxons from modern Saxony
At least saxons should be split into an own culture. No idea if other gemrna groups were culturally different enough for more groups.
For clarification
- Modern Saxons would be Franconian (there's not enough of a cultural difference between Thuringen and Sachsen to differentiate, imo). Transylvanian germans were that type of saxons. This comes mostly from the destruction of the old saxon dynasty's power.
- Saxons of that time period would be in Brunswick, and the german parts of Oldenburg (which should be Frisian on the coast) and Holstein (so Hamburg), along with the german settlers in Brandenburg, Mecklemburg and Pommerania, and the province of Münster. The franconian spoken in this new duchy of Saxony is what mostly became standard modern german.
- If Frisian is added, it should be West Germanic, unlike Dutch which is descended from a local Low German dialect. It would likely cover the Frisian provinces (including the northern half of Holland, if I remember the map correctly), along with coastal Oldenburg. It would be hard to represent Northern Frisia unless Schleswig was made entirely frisian since there's too few provinces.
- If there's any divisions done in the south: Rhenish is Franconian, as is Lorraine's Germans. No there shouldn't be a special culture for every single little duchy in the empire. Similarly Switzerland and Alsace would be Alemanic or Swabian (which the native colloquial Swiss german is a dialect of to this day), and Austria and Carinthia should probably just fall under a broad Bavarian lump. The four stem duchies plus a reasonable distribution of the marches should be good enough.
- Cultures of the time were somewhat more distinct, yes there were rebellions in the north, and the cultural dynamics in the game (such as adopting liege culture, conversion, etc).
Ultimately it remains that both lumping and dividing cultures heavily causes issues in that it's deterministic, but I don't think the game can quite model dozens of divergent historical paths in that regard (like "what if the republic of Jamtland remained independent long enough for the local dialect to be considered a language" - they're still considered relatively distinctive dialects to this day)
- Modern Saxons would be Franconian (there's not enough of a cultural difference between Thuringen and Sachsen to differentiate, imo). Transylvanian germans were that type of saxons. This comes mostly from the destruction of the old saxon dynasty's power.
- Saxons of that time period would be in Brunswick, and the german parts of Oldenburg (which should be Frisian on the coast) and Holstein (so Hamburg), along with the german settlers in Brandenburg, Mecklemburg and Pommerania, and the province of Münster. The franconian spoken in this new duchy of Saxony is what mostly became standard modern german.
- If Frisian is added, it should be West Germanic, unlike Dutch which is descended from a local Low German dialect. It would likely cover the Frisian provinces (including the northern half of Holland, if I remember the map correctly), along with coastal Oldenburg. It would be hard to represent Northern Frisia unless Schleswig was made entirely frisian since there's too few provinces.
- If there's any divisions done in the south: Rhenish is Franconian, as is Lorraine's Germans. No there shouldn't be a special culture for every single little duchy in the empire. Similarly Switzerland and Alsace would be Alemanic or Swabian (which the native colloquial Swiss german is a dialect of to this day), and Austria and Carinthia should probably just fall under a broad Bavarian lump. The four stem duchies plus a reasonable distribution of the marches should be good enough.
- Cultures of the time were somewhat more distinct, yes there were rebellions in the north, and the cultural dynamics in the game (such as adopting liege culture, conversion, etc).
Ultimately it remains that both lumping and dividing cultures heavily causes issues in that it's deterministic, but I don't think the game can quite model dozens of divergent historical paths in that regard (like "what if the republic of Jamtland remained independent long enough for the local dialect to be considered a language" - they're still considered relatively distinctive dialects to this day)
That's why I put Central Germanic in brackets. There would Baltic and Central Germanic Pomeranian culture and Baltic and Central Germanic Prussian culture.
Ehhhhm... Saxons are not pommerian... You confuse modern Saxons with Old Saxons. Olsd Saxons life in the today Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen). They aren't slavs, they are Germanic.And I have already say, there was a civil war, because of differnt culture. The Saxon Rebellion. No Saxons from modern Saxony
Nope. Old saxons were around there as well.
I know very well that saxons are not pommeranians, but for game-mechanics it works the same way. Besides this saxon revolt you mentioned i don't know of any other and it seems not be enough
to include another culture. Didn't they (PDS) say that they'll only have cultures for possible independent kingdoms anyway ? They also said iirc that they won't introduce cultures for less than 3-5 counties. So no split-up where its not usefull.
I still don't see a valuable and historical plausible reason to split up germans, besides this one revolt you mentioned which i think is not enough to include it.
The trouble inside the HRE should rather come from factions and in my last and current game in 1.08 the HRE has quite some trouble with those.
Saxons and the rest of Germany never really love each other in the mediaevel times. And 3-5 counties? Low Germany would have 10 or more (the whole yellow area if you don't add Frisian). And after the Ostkolonisation the whole Brandenburg and Prussia etc. would became Saxon/Low German. And for ingame... But not for historical reasons. The spoke another language. I'm not a friend of split German in many cultures, but Saxon should be there in opposit to German.
But hey... I can life without them.
And I can easily mod them in.
According to the wikipedia article especially the last revolt was caused by tyranny and that's in the game already.
IMO it´s not that cultures themselves were that different, it´s more that the HRE is too stable and needs more antagonisms. The extra relation malus from different cultures, while not huge would be a balancing factor. It has more to do with creating political division than cultural division.
Also, beware of anachronisms. Don´t compare XXI century Germany with X century. If germans were so united why Bavaria for example had special status after the unification, for example? Or prussians looked down on other germans? And that´s to mention only relatively recent regionalisms. There were several regionalisms in Germany, which simply aren´t covered well enough in the current game.
Also, beware of anachronisms. Don´t compare XXI century Germany with X century. If germans were so united why Bavaria for example had special status after the unification, for example? Or prussians looked down on other germans? And that´s to mention only relatively recent regionalisms. There were several regionalisms in Germany, which simply aren´t covered well enough in the current game.
Well, I speak German, and I've spoken people from Berlin, Essen, München and Wien using the very same Hochdeutsch (High German). These are only dialects and have not become separate languages like Dutch or Anglosaxon which have the very same roots as the German but have diverged much farther. Thus the game represents languages as part of a bigger culture.
If you really want to separate cultures into smaller parts then you have a lot more job than just Germany.
>Berlin, Essen, München and Wien using the very same Hochdeutsch (High German)
Yes, because of 19th century standardization and universal education in hochdeutsch.
Plattdeutsch is a separate language.
> Dutch
Funny you mention Dutch, since until the 19th century Dutch formed a dialect continuum with the other low german languages.
Yes, because of 19th century standardization and universal education in hochdeutsch.
Plattdeutsch is a separate language.
> Dutch
Funny you mention Dutch, since until the 19th century Dutch formed a dialect continuum with the other low german languages.
