How the German culture should be split

[Chlodio]

I hope I'm not only one who thinks that German culture should be more than one culture.

Let's take example how the German culture is split in other games.

In EU3 German culture is split like this:
Hannoverian, Hessian, Saxon, Rheinlaender, Bavarian, Austrian

When in Vichy 2 there is a split between North and South German, and then Swiss is in it's own group.

So how should the German culture be split in CK2?

 

[Ols]

It shouldn't. The Holy Roman Emperor would just spread his subculture around and mess up the cultures inside the HRE

 

[macphineas]

Honestly, I don't see any point to splitting German culture. The HRE is based around an amalgamation of both Frankish and Roman law, and all the German stem duchies agree upon it. Nowhere in the time period is culture a major division within Germany--it's great house rivalries and emperors battling popes for supremacy, with both currying favor with the cities. Subtle cultural differences just didn't matter as much at this point. But if you must have a split, I would do a binary North/South division (although that leaves the Franks themselves in the middle).

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Why should they ? They are important for relations, marriage and inviting.
There shouldnt be a reason why the duchy of bavaria will prefer a bavarian count's daughter compared to a daughter of a Duke of Brunswick for instance.

 

[TheLionHeart]

I'm all for adding depth to everyone's favorite black and gold death stack, but I think that would be far too much. More cultures yes, but I don't think a hessian culture is really needed right? (sorry hessian readers lol) I like the north and south German cultures just fine in Vicky 2 and would be nice if added to CK 2. But i'm afraid of what the HRE will become with more cultures as is with the way the independence wars work in the HRE. The laws in the empire should be unique for them so that cultures like the Frankish, Czech, and Dutch rulers (ahem) don't go super nationalist just because an emperor with little control over them speaks a different language than them. The crown authority laws don't carry over well at all for Empires, instead it should only have one special authority law for the empire that is weaker than autonomous crown authority. This is not going to nerf them completely, the crown authority in it can be changed but instead each time a new member of the same dynasty of the previous kaiser is elected, the crown authority can be raised, if your dynasty keeps holding power continuously it will make you more powerful but your vassals will start to dislike you a lot if holding it for a long time, making you have to resort to sneaky tactics, keen diplomacy, and of course anti popes if you want to get the full strength of the Empire.
This will make the HRE a much more dynamic experience, since corruption is barely seen, and about 70% of your civil wars are Independence wars from some Frankish and Czech punks. I would love to actually be able to play a Holland game without an asshole kaiser raising crown authority to absolute without any vassals objecting. I can only hope that a Holy Roman Empire flavor pack will be added someday instead of trying to make the Norse playble.

 

[Chlodio]

Think it like this. We all know that HRE is overpowered, but If German culture is split it will make HRE more decentralized (like it was) and more civil wars will be born and that will make it weaker.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Think it like this. We all know that HRE is overpowered, but If German culture is split it will make HRE more decentralized (like it was) and more civil wars will be born and that will make it weaker.

I dont think so. In my 1.08 game the HRE has so much do deal with its own problems due to faction revolts that it barely can hold back the fatimids/egypt from entering germany and the kingdoms inside are created and
hold by different dynasties contrary to earlier versions, though it might be an accident in this game.

..and disputes based on a culture modifier would be quite unplausible.

 

[tuareg109]

A. German
-----1. Rhenish
-----2. Saxon
-----3. Bavarian
-----4. Franconian
-----5. Schwabian
-----6. Austrian
-----7. Ostmarker

Whaddaya think?

 

[Chlodio]

Good, but what is "Ostmarker"?

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

I guess its this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Eastern_March

Brandenburg, Meissen/eastern saxony

 

[tuareg109]

Good, but what is "Ostmarker"?

I'm not sure what the technical term would be, but it's like Brandenburg and Meissen, those living in the Carolignian Empire's former "East March" or "Ostmark".
I thought it appropriate, despite its similarity with Austria's name.

I guess its this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Eastern_March

Brandenburg, Meissen/eastern saxony

Yes.

 

[wilcoxchar]

I don't think it needs that many. Just Bavarian, Saxon, Franconian, and Rhenish would be enough.

 

[Thure]

There where hugedifferents beetween north and south german in this game time. And Saxon means North German. Look at this, shortly after the game start, there was a Rebellion of Saxon rulers against the Frankish emperor.

I would split it Only in German and Saxon. Eventually bavarian, but im not sure.

Swiss als culture... I don't think this is good at this time.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Yeah, there should definitely be animosity between the last of the old Saxon rulers in the North and the Germans to the South, including the Salian dynasty. In fact, there should be a couple of major rebellions (imperial civil wars) as playable wars in the game database, but there aren't. You should be able to install the Saxons' candidate as Emperor.

 

[Macs]

I don't think a separation of the culture would be necessary, and maybe even counterproductive by gameplay terms.

But if some day PDS decides to divide the culture groups, I'd say without cluttering the place too much you could divide the German culture roughly among the old stem duchies, so we get Franconian, Bavarian, Saxon, Swabian and Lorrainian. I'd suppose you could merge Lorrainian with Franconian, though, and maybe name Swabian Allemanic as a broader term.

 

[Wallain]

My real gripe with a cohesive German culture in the game is the incoherency it has with the rest of the game. For some reason the Norse are split into three culture groups while the entirety of Germany only has one? It is especially silly when you consider that there was no actual split in the Norse culture at that time. Either you make big generic cultures or you make small specific cultures all over. It does not do to half-ass it somewhere as it makes it that much more powerful and consolidated than everywhere else.

 

[justin6477]

I don't think a separation of the culture would be necessary, and maybe even counterproductive by gameplay terms.

But if some day PDS decides to divide the culture groups, I'd say without cluttering the place too much you could divide the German culture roughly among the old stem duchies, so we get Franconian, Bavarian, Saxon, Swabian and Lorrainian. I'd suppose you could merge Lorrainian with Franconian, though, and maybe name Swabian Allemanic as a broader term.

Eh, I think Bavarian, Saxon, and Swabian would be the way to go. The original Franks would basically be Dutch in this game, so the current melange of German, Frankish, and Dutch in Lorraine and Frisia is appropriate. Did Franconia ever get its own regional dialect/culture? I would imagine that the Frankish settlers (for which the area is named) would've quickly assimilated linguistically. Three should keep things relatively uncluttered. That being said, I'd like to see a Burgundian culture added to the Latin group. Ideally, each Kingdom should have its own culture. Let us not speak of the Sicilian oversight.

My real gripe with a cohesive German culture in the game is the incoherency it has with the rest of the game. For some reason the Norse are split into three culture groups while the entirety of Germany only has one? It is especially silly when you consider that there was no actual split in the Norse culture at that time. Either you make big generic cultures or you make small specific cultures all over. It does not do to half-ass it somewhere as it makes it that much more powerful and consolidated than everywhere else.

Wasn't there an East/West split linguistically? In which case it should just be Denmark and Sweden as Eastern Norse, while Norway gets to be West.

 

[Wallain]

Wasn't there an East/West split linguistically? In which case it should just be Denmark and Sweden as Eastern Norse, while Norway gets to be West.

Yeah, but that is about the only thing really and it is not how it is represented in the game either.

 

[Trunting]

Hmm, splitting the German culture group would be indeed interesting. When the game came out, I was kind of surprised, it hadnt been implemented.

In fact, the HRE is probably the state in the game, which currently at least suit with its counterpart in reality. It is too stable, to aggressive, the intern mechanics arent really represented. There were suggestion sin the past to use the Stem Duchies instead of the (ahistorical) kingdoms of Bavaria and Lotharingia, although some of them had completely lost their power in 1066 and the others were destroyed in the continuing centuries. But I think, at least Saxonia and Bavaria and Svabia should play the role they played in the 11th century: Svabia as the land of the Stauffer, Saxon and Bavaria as Welf countries. Saxonia is splitted pretty early into Brunswick etc.

How to split the German culture group?

First, I would have a look at the linguistic differences (because language is one of the factors for cultural differences).

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...räume962_Box.jpg&filetimestamp=20071013223047
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelhochdeutsch#R.C3.A4umliche_Gliederung

As I see it, you would split it into Bavarian, Svabian, Saxonian, maybe Thuringian, Rheno-Frankian and Frisian culture group. The relations penalty however, should be decreased a bit to -15, because of the higher number of different culture groups.

 

[VI Imre]

No.