How play with Slavic pagans?

[Cyfral9]

Hey,

After playing several scenarios on the map, including some germanic pagans, decided to play Slavic pagans.
First started in 769 start. Three different starts in Poland ended quickly as my person and his family members died due some sickness.

In 869 start, as a Piast I was able to create Kingdom of Poland. Although I am unable to reach Slavic cult places like Rugen, Kiev or Novogrod as neighbours are to strong.
Plan is to reform Slavic religion rather than adopt feudalism.

Need some advise.

 

[Andrew0Red]

Playing as pagans, you're stuck with elective gavelkind. That is ... challenging. The ususal approach is not to get more than 50% - and that's a VERY, VERY hard 50%, not 51% - of any neighbouring Kingdom, so new titles don't appear. Then after you reform, it's fully safe to march towards the empire at whatever pace you can.

Seeing as you're far away from the reform lands, uou'll have to go from 1 kingdom + ½ of each neighbour straigt to 80% of the empire under one king... Good luck with that...

On the up-side, your personal demesne is 30% larger. Also remember that anything you give your sons before you die counts towards the total pool of titles that will be distributed upon your death (I.e. if you hold 8 tittles yourself and your 4 sons hold 3 titles each, they'll each end up with ca. 5 titles.)

Hmm, you may wish to switch your start around a bit so it's easier for you to reach 3 of the holy sites, though I see they're spread widely. Maybe even start with a designed ruler?

 

[ThePettyQueen]

I've done it as 769 Kiev (Dobrava Turov) and 867 Greater Poland (Piast). I built up my retinues, first used subjugation CB on something outside my de jure kingdom, then on everything inside my de jure kingdom (due to "Become king/queen" ambition). Used conquest CB wherever I could. On ruler death the realm split into separate kingdoms, but the new ruler got claims on the newly formed kingdoms so I just took them back. It took a couple generations each time.

 

[jonjowett]

There are various workarounds for elective Gavelkind, som of which are more exploity than others, eg:

• Only have one son (separate from wife and concubines after he's born)
• Only have one living son (contrive to get the others killed, before they have kids)
• Only have one eligible son (use seduction focus to create a horde of bastards, pick the one you like)

If you can, the "easiest" way out of elective gavelkind is to reform the religion in your first ruler's lifetime. Look at the map of holy sites, and pick a ruler who has easy access to at least 3 of them. (This tactic is easiest for Germanic rulers and hardest for Tengri/Suomenskuo.) Fabricating claims with your chancellor may be useful.

If your realm is going to split from gavelkind, pick the whichever of your sons is the best general as your successor. (That's the "elective" part of the succession law.) All of your sons will get strong claims on your other independent sons' top-tier titles. And a strong general is best placed to reconquer them.

I usually prefer to save my once-per-lifetime subjugation CB for a few decades after game start, after the AI have blobbed up via their own subjugation CBs. You can use your "free" subjugations from "become king" before your lifetime subjugation, if you're careful. (Find a nearby realm that's 100% outside your kingdom; check you can in theory subjugate them immediately after every subjugation declaration inside your kingdom; if not, savescum.)

"Extort tribute" wars are a very useful opener for pagans - these tributaries are forced to join your wars; and you don't have to manage them like vassals; and, after 5-10 years, you can break the tribute and instantly declare war on them. Basically, they are a very cheap force-multiplier: having 2-3 tributary duchies means you can stomp any other nearby duchy with ease.

Slavic is a defensive pagan religion, which means you get massive combat bonuses in counties that follow your religion. (It's the county religion that matters, not the religion of the count/duke/etc.) If you're fighting a non-Slavic realm, make sure the battles take place in Slavic counties. Be aware that Suomenskuo and Romuva get the same bonus, so do not ever fight battles in their counties.

Join the warrior lodge and work your way up to the top rank ("hero") asap. (Don't spend society currency on anything except level-ups, and do the missions asap.) That top rank gains society currency very fast (so you can very quickly do all the fun things you skipped at ranks 2 & 3), and it also has the ability to instantly refill the levies of any settlement (very useful for recovering from a war).

There's probably more I could say, but I think that's more than enough for now!

 

[Andrew0Red]

...
least 3 of them. (This tactic is easiest for Germanic rulers and hardest for Tengri/Suomenskuo.) Fabricating claims with your chancellor may be useful.
...

I disagree on it being hard for Suomenusko. If you start in Finland, Estland/Estonia or Novgorod/Rus, you have three sites very close by. And if you start in Finland, becoming king will make you strong enough to take on Novgorod. Remember you only need to take one or two counties from it.

Hmm, maybe it gets much more difficult in later starts?

I'd say Slavic has it much harder, just judging from the map of holy sites. But there may be stronger starts down there?

 

[noobermenschen]

There are various workarounds for elective Gavelkind, som of which are more exploity than others, eg:

• Only have one son (separate from wife and concubines after he's born)
• Only have one living son (contrive to get the others killed, before they have kids)
• Only have one eligible son (use seduction focus to create a horde of bastards, pick the one you like)

If you can, the "easiest" way out of elective gavelkind is to reform the religion in your first ruler's lifetime. Look at the map of holy sites, and pick a ruler who has easy access to at least 3 of them. (This tactic is easiest for Germanic rulers and hardest for Tengri/Suomenskuo.) Fabricating claims with your chancellor may be useful.

If your realm is going to split from gavelkind, pick the whichever of your sons is the best general as your successor. (That's the "elective" part of the succession law.) All of your sons will get strong claims on your other independent sons' top-tier titles. And a strong general is best placed to reconquer them.

I usually prefer to save my once-per-lifetime subjugation CB for a few decades after game start, after the AI have blobbed up via their own subjugation CBs. You can use your "free" subjugations from "become king" before your lifetime subjugation, if you're careful. (Find a nearby realm that's 100% outside your kingdom; check you can in theory subjugate them immediately after every subjugation declaration inside your kingdom; if not, savescum.)

"Extort tribute" wars are a very useful opener for pagans - these tributaries are forced to join your wars; and you don't have to manage them like vassals; and, after 5-10 years, you can break the tribute and instantly declare war on them. Basically, they are a very cheap force-multiplier: having 2-3 tributary duchies means you can stomp any other nearby duchy with ease.

Slavic is a defensive pagan religion, which means you get massive combat bonuses in counties that follow your religion. (It's the county religion that matters, not the religion of the count/duke/etc.) If you're fighting a non-Slavic realm, make sure the battles take place in Slavic counties. Be aware that Suomenskuo and Romuva get the same bonus, so do not ever fight battles in their counties.

Join the warrior lodge and work your way up to the top rank ("hero") asap. (Don't spend society currency on anything except level-ups, and do the missions asap.) That top rank gains society currency very fast (so you can very quickly do all the fun things you skipped at ranks 2 & 3), and it also has the ability to instantly refill the levies of any settlement (very useful for recovering from a war).

There's probably more I could say, but I think that's more than enough for now!

Thank you for the advice. And I do hope that "Horde of Bastards" makes it into the heavy metal soundtrack for CKIII.

 

[jonjowett]

I disagree on it being hard for Suomenusko. If you start in Finland, Estland/Estonia or Novgorod/Rus, you have three sites very close by. And if you start in Finland, becoming king will make you strong enough to take on Novgorod. Remember you only need to take one or two counties from it.

Hmm, maybe it gets much more difficult in later starts?

IMO, the problem is that you often need 4 sites, unless you can burn a LOT of temples. (Your pagan conquest wins are usually greatly outweighed by the AI's pagan conquest / holy war losses.) The 4th site is usually very far away (difficult to get a CB unless you're Germanic). Looting temples in the early game usually requires ship raiding, and most of the Suomenskuo are very landlocked (in Siberia).

However, I had forgotten that there are Finns in Finland... so... yeah... ship raiding isn't a big problem if you start there!

 

[Andrew0Red]

When you just need to loot temples ... just send a big stack of looters overland. Sure, you get no cash, but you still get the +1% MA (remember there's nearly no winter down in Poland and beyond!). Hmm, might still be difficult for permic, ugric and samoyedic. :/

 

[jonjowett]

When you just need to loot temples ... just send a big stack of looters overland. Sure, you get no cash, but you still get the +1% MA (remember there's nearly no winter down in Poland and beyond!). Hmm, might still be difficult for permic, ugric and samoyedic. :/

I am aware of this, but I don't think it's viable in this particular situation. (Except if your raiding target is extremely weak, like an independent count.)

In order to loot a temple, you need to siege a county for, probably, more than a year. This gives the local lords ample time to gather their levies. If their levies are similar in size to your raiders (which is likely if you raid a kingdom/duchy in the early game) then you'll need to run away. (Otherwise you will probably be defeated, blocking you from raiding that lord for 5 years. Even if you win the battle, you'll be depleted, which might force you to break off the siege.)

For sea-borne raiders, this is trivial. (You can embark much faster than the enemy army can catch you. And, once you're embarked, you're safe.)

For overland raiders, it's not impossible, but it's probably quite difficult and it's also very reliant on luck. (You'd need to watch like a hawk on low speed so you could start moving out as soon as the enemy army appears from the fog of war. And you'd need to hope that their direction of approach gave you the possibility of escape - if the enemy army approaches from the "closest" county to the one you're besieging, you're toast. And you'd need to hope that you can continue to run away faster than they can pursue, possibly for 6 months. During this retreat, you will suffer constant attrition due to being out of supplies and not actively raiding. This attrition might mean you no longer have enough raiders to siege castles, so you have to go home.)

Don't get me wrong: Overland raids on non-neighbours are feasible in the mid- and late-game, when you can afford to send large armies. (Large enough that attritional/combat casualties don't stop them from being able to siege castles.) But I don't think you can muster large enough armies for it to be viable for early-game tribals vs feudals - except if there is an unusually-weak target nearby. So, in general, I don't think it's a viable source of MA for early pagan reformation.

 

[Cyfral9]

I am in year 905 now, and have 3 Holy Sites under my control (Plock, Novogrod and Kiev). Although Moral Authority is only 32. How to increase MA easy?
Rugen is under germanic Kingdom and for Focsani in do need CB.
Catholic Crusaders started just now too.

 

[jonjowett]

I am in year 905 now, and have 3 Holy Sites under my control (Plock, Novogrod and Kiev). Although Moral Authority is only 32. How to increase MA easy?
Rugen is under germanic Kingdom and for Focsani in do need CB.
Catholic Crusaders started just now too.

First, get ready to conquer another holy site, for another 10% MA. Get a good chancellor (20+, not craven, not greedy) and set him fabricating a claim asap.

Then:
Pagan county conquests give 1% each
Looted heathen temples (sieged by raiders) give 1% each
Building temples gives 1% each

If there are nearby temples you can very easily siege to the ground raid, that's probably the easiest. But this is unlikely IMO (see my post above).

Otherwise, you're going to need a lot of county conquests!

 

[Andrew0Red]

I am aware of this, but I don't think it's viable in this particular situation. (Except if your raiding target is extremely weak, like an independent count.)

Hmm, I've started in 769 in Finland several times and never had problems getting the last dozen MA this way. Granted, the last 2 sites start controlled by the right religion. Hmm, perhaps the poles and neighbours are exceptionally weak in this start? Ah, it's probably my designed ruler; 20+ martial would change the odds, right?

 

[MateuszS]

Well, there's also great tribal festival decision and occassional build the great pillar, but most of MA will come from county conquests including at least one holy site.

 

[jonjowett]

Hmm, I've started in 769 in Finland several times and never had problems getting the last dozen MA this way. Granted, the last 2 sites start controlled by the right religion. Hmm, perhaps the poles and neighbours are exceptionally weak in this start? Ah, it's probably my designed ruler; 20+ martial would change the odds, right?

Just a little lol. That'd give you quite a multiplier to levies.

 

[jonjowett]

Well, there's also great tribal festival decision and occassional build the great pillar, but most of MA will come from county conquests including at least one holy site.

Good point. +2%/+5% from festival/pillar that is probably the absolute easiest MA.