How often does game balance interfere with realism?

[GabrielLoki]

Sometimes, in order to allow for historical events to occur, the game itself will outright cheat. It's almost impossible to recreate these events with a different character. For example, a drastic shift in power from one character to another; if it's a historical event, the receiver often gets event troops, and gets powerful claims out of the blue.

 

[SaphireSeas]

Traitors are treated with respect, as if they made a minor transgression against the crown.
I'm sure there are many more of them.

 

[Shebaloso]

Traitors are treated with respect, as if they made a minor transgression against the crown.
I'm sure there are many more of them.

so...blinding, castrating, executing, throwing in the oubliette for life, revoking all possible titles and ransoming are now considered signs of "respect"?

 

[Helios Panoptes]

Byzantium can't use Imperial Reconquest, despite that being its CB for basically all of its wars.

 

[RagingJaws]

My last Ireland start (769, aiming for a simple kingdom level Republic for achievement reasons) ended ten years in due to Irish adventures and their 2k doom stacks that hang around after they've conquered their target.

Irish light infantry: Milord, you've achieved your dream. What shall we do now? Can we settle here?
Irish Adventurer turned Count/Chief: Uhh noooo..how about you lot just sit in that field over there for the next 40+ years.

Not to mention the screaming hordes of religious heretics that tend to spawn like rabbits from a single province, even if you invade the county within a week to try and forestall that from happening. Might make sense if it was a Kingdom or even a Duchy but a poor independent county shouldn't have to deal with rebels 4x it's entire levy+garrison.

 

[SaphireSeas]

so...blinding, castrating, executing, throwing in the oubliette for life, revoking all possible titles and ransoming are now considered signs of "respect"?

No, but if you do that they hate you. The far more common thing is revoke a title, any more causes tyranny.
One title per rebellion. Isn't that respectful?

 

[Caspoi]

Byzantium can't use Imperial Reconquest, despite that being its CB for basically all of its wars.

It still has de jure casus belli, that is something at least.

 

[napoleon_mayo]

Needing a casus belis to go to war for land.

I understand back then going to war without a casus belis would trigger your neighbors and vassals and would be considered inappropriate, but I feel like it ruins immersion when I the King of Ireland has double the troops of the King of scotland, and I could easily take over his kingdom and have it for my own. The only person near me who could object (king of England) is my friend and cousin. Instead I have to slowly fabricate claims by the county and spend 40-100 years slowly taking over Scotland province by province.

 

[Gans]

No, but if you do that they hate you. The far more common thing is revoke a title, any more causes tyranny.
One title per rebellion. Isn't that respectful?

I just leave 'em in prison after I revoked what I could tyranny-free. Castrating doesn't have much use when he already has tons of kids anyway, blinding isn't great either - unless he is my rival and I'm on war focus. Then it's a free duel win.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

I understand back then going to war without a casus belis would trigger your neighbors and vassals and would be considered inappropriate, but I feel like it ruins immersion when I the King of Ireland has double the troops of the King of scotland, and I could easily take over his kingdom and have it for my own. The only person near me who could object (king of England) is my friend and cousin. Instead I have to slowly fabricate claims by the county and spend 40-100 years slowly taking over Scotland province by province.

The Roman Empire has to fabricate a claim on the city of Rome.

 

[Simmy93]

I suppose at the end of the day unless you're dead from the plague, being accused of sodomy and subsiquently hanged or exploting millions for personal gain its hard to get real 'realmism' right. I think CKII makes a few judgement calls in terms of mechanics but I definitely feel the narrative and gameplay is sound in terms of immersion.

 

[Shebaloso]

No, but if you do that they hate you. The far more common thing is revoke a title, any more causes tyranny.
One title per rebellion. Isn't that respectful?

And what is the problem with that? You actually think that vassals should stand idle and watch one of their fellows be striped of all titles, castrated or blinded and be devoid of any opinion on the matter? I mean, you CAN do those things, there is no hampering of player choice. And if i'm not mistaken, the revoking thing being limited to one title is related to forceful revocations and truces. If the prisoner is a rebel, you CAN revoke all his titles

 

[Gans]

And what is the problem with that? You actually think that vassals should stand idle and watch one of their fellows be striped of all titles, castrated or blinded and be devoid of any opinion on the matter? I mean, you CAN do those things, there is no hampering of player choice. And if i'm not mistaken, the revoking thing being limited to one title is related to forceful revocations and truces. If the prisoner is a rebel, you CAN revoke all his titles

Ain't true. You can revoke one title. If you have imp. adm. and you revoke a duchy then you effed up because you can't revoke anything more (which is a joke because the duchy should be free with imp. adm.) You have to revoke a county first. Logic strikes hard there.

 

[SaphireSeas]

And what is the problem with that? You actually think that vassals should stand idle and watch one of their fellows be striped of all titles, castrated or blinded and be devoid of any opinion on the matter?

Rebels are rebels. By rebelling against the crown, they are putting their life on the line. In feudal societies, a civil war was a split, the defeated tended to lose a lot.
eg: Williams Harrying of the North
In the ERE even more so. When the Komenos lost the ERE throne, they did not become vassals to the new dynasty - but independent.

also:
Castrating and blinding is limited to the violent ERE(Greek culture)
Your vassals don't care whether you throw others in prison and keep them there as long as you have a reason, I seem to remember a bohemian king: Wenceslaus IV in a similar situation. He was imprisoned by his vassals who disliked him. The HRE lords didn't seem to care.
Ransoming is very much the epitomy of respect. It was how a war economy worked. In fact the biggest complaint on the battle of Agincourt was that the knights were all slain by the longbows, so there was no ransom money. Ransoming is respectful.

This will not change. If you were putting your land and life on the line when you rebelled, how often would you rebel?
This is to ensure the vassal management game is a consistent hassle, and is not particularly accurate to the real world. England suffered one or two civil wars to "lower crown authority" (First baron's war) and had far more claimant wars (Stephen v Matilda, War of the Roses).

Being non-respectful to vassals in CK2 leads to tyranny, unless they are not of your religion (and your vassals allow you to change the revocation laws) or you are Greek.

 

[Dahoota]

Byzantium can't use Imperial Reconquest, despite that being its CB for basically all of its wars.

The Roman Empire has to fabricate a claim on the city of Rome.

The Byzantines referred to themselves as Roman and were the real successors to the empire, but few outside the empire thought that - westerners referred to them more often as "the Empire of the Greeks". This becomes even more the case after the schism.

As someone else pointed out, the motivation behind having Cassis Belli on another realm was to avoid other realms having motivation to interfere by demonstrating your "right" to the land, etc. What's the point if no one else recognises them as the empire?

Only being able to revoke one title after a rebellion is a good case of this though - more often after a failed rebellion political enemies were crushed and their possessions confiscated. This would be pretty broken in-game though.

Battles that take weeks? The average siege taking 10-18 months (especially late game).

Attacker warscore capped at 75% from battles? "Our army is TOTALLY obliterated and we have zero chance of winning at all now as every fighting man in the country is dead, but we won't surrender until you've besieged a few castles". Makes sense for game balance though.

 

[Dahoota]

Byzantium can't use Imperial Reconquest, despite that being its CB for basically all of its wars.

The Roman Empire has to fabricate a claim on the city of Rome.

The Byzantines referred to themselves as Roman and were the real successors to the empire, but few outside the empire thought that - westerners referred to them more often as "the Empire of the Greeks". This becomes even more the case after the schism.

As someone else pointed out, the motivation behind having Cassis Belli on another realm was to avoid other realms having motivation to interfere by demonstrating your "right" to the land, etc. What's the point if no one else recognises them as the empire?

Only being able to revoke one title after a rebellion is a good case of this though - more often after a failed rebellion political enemies were crushed and their possessions confiscated. This would be pretty broken in-game though.

Battles that take weeks? The average siege taking 10-18 months (especially late game).

Attacker warscore capped at 75% from battles? "Our army is TOTALLY obliterated and we have zero chance of winning at all now as every fighting man in the country is dead, but we won't surrender until you've besieged a few castles". Makes sense for game balance though.

EDIT: Can a mod delete this second post? My phone seems to have posted twice for some reason.

 

[TheDungen]

Well until the things that made the byzantine empire weak are also represented I'm kind of glad the don't have the imperial reconquest cb, they already snowball out of all proportion anyway.

 

[Rascar Capac]

My new pet peeve, powerful vassals. I find it unrealistic that I should let these guys to run kingdom's day-to-day affairs when they have their own domains to rule. That's their reason to exist, to govern lands their overlord can't. But nope, they want to actually leave their hometurf and interfere in players business instead of minding their own.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

The Byzantines referred to themselves as Roman and were the real successors to the empire, but few outside the empire thought that - westerners referred to them more often as "the Empire of the Greeks". This becomes even more the case after the schism.

As someone else pointed out, the motivation behind having Cassis Belli on another realm was to avoid other realms having motivation to interfere by demonstrating your "right" to the land, etc. What's the point if no one else recognises them as the empire?

Everybody considered the Empire to be Roman until Charlemagne was crowned in 800 AD. In the 1330s, Dante Alighieri calls Justinian a Roman Emperor.

If you start in 769, it's the Roman Empire and everybody from the Pope to Meldrick knows it. It's not until the translatio imperii comes in that it becomes the 'Empire of the Greeks' to Westerners.

So in game terms, 769 should have the Roman Empire on the map until the HRE event fires, turning it into Byzantium. Also Africa should be de jure Byzantine/Roman since it's been less than 100 years since it was lost.

 

[iron0037]

• You can teleport people from one army to another when the armies aren't in the same location.
• You can impregnate your wife despite her being in a different location.
• You get a diplomatic response from people in a few days despite travel time taking much more than that.
• Ships never randomly sink or get lost.
• Ships always hold exactly 100 troops regardless of type (horses don't take any space).
• No one ever dies while on a ship.
• You can disband troops in one pet of your realm and instantly retailers them in their home province.
• There can only be at most 7 castles in a particular province.
• Prestige, piety, and opinions are numerically measurable quantities.
• Hostile armies cannot coexist in the same province but instead instantly fight each other.
• Battles take weeks instead of hours.

I could go on .