How much of an advantage do the allies start with at the beginning of the game?

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Secret Master

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It depends on how its implemented. I know that the Dyle-plan works against the AI because I have used it twice before. That is because the AI basically uses the WWI-attack plan. If a Germany player does this, and gets stumped, that would be ok.
If you're smart and use intelligent strategy, and you still get stumped by a pre-sentient French AI, that would not be ok.

Maybe not the best explanation, but I'm sure you get the meaning.

Just in case anyone is not clear, I don't think AI Germany should fail consistently against AI France. Stacking the deck to ensure that AI loses the Battle of France to Germany consistently is fine by me.

My primary concern is when a human is playing either power. Germany shouldn't just stroll into France under human control, and human France shouldn't have to do absurdly exploitive things to even stand a chance of holding out a few months. (Seriously, when I'm looking at making sure every division on the border with Germany and Benelux has ARM, MOT, and TDs just to ensure that there are no breakthroughs, and because manpower is so ridiculously short, the balance might be off a tad, especially with those decisions.)
 

misterbean

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Just in case anyone is not clear, I don't think AI Germany should fail consistently against AI France. Stacking the deck to ensure that AI loses the Battle of France to Germany consistently is fine by me.

My primary concern is when a human is playing either power. Germany shouldn't just stroll into France under human control, and human France shouldn't have to do absurdly exploitive things to even stand a chance of holding out a few months. (Seriously, when I'm looking at making sure every division on the border with Germany and Benelux has ARM, MOT, and TDs just to ensure that there are no breakthroughs, and because manpower is so ridiculously short, the balance might be off a tad, especially with those decisions.)

Agreed. AI vs AI is a whole different situation than player vs AI. And just for the record, I agree completely that Germany tends to win or lose the war during the Western campaign.
 

Bluestreak2k5

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Just in case anyone is not clear, I don't think AI Germany should fail consistently against AI France. Stacking the deck to ensure that AI loses the Battle of France to Germany consistently is fine by me.

My primary concern is when a human is playing either power. Germany shouldn't just stroll into France under human control, and human France shouldn't have to do absurdly exploitive things to even stand a chance of holding out a few months. (Seriously, when I'm looking at making sure every division on the border with Germany and Benelux has ARM, MOT, and TDs just to ensure that there are no breakthroughs, and because manpower is so ridiculously short, the balance might be off a tad, especially with those decisions.)

I think that we are going about this all wrong, the game is about alternate reality, so trying to ensure Germany always defeats France in 2 months is not an alternate reality.

Germany should ALWAYS be able to defeat France in the end, whether it takes 4 months, 1 month, or 1 year. Germany has several years of war rearmament, as well as superior tactics and organization. On top of this, the British army is not very well equipped compared to Germany, and has much more to worry about in Naval and airforce then army.

I believe the new factory production system will help reflect a lot of this, as it removes a lot of problems, as well as Germany having a front loaded doctrine system should enable them to always defeat France. Getting stuck on such a small detail as does it happen in 2 months is rather silly IMO in an alternate reality game.
 

1alexey

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My primary concern is when a human is playing either power. Germany shouldn't just stroll into France under human control, and human France shouldn't have to do absurdly exploitive things to even stand a chance of holding out a few months. (Seriously, when I'm looking at making sure every division on the border with Germany and Benelux has ARM, MOT, and TDs just to ensure that there are no breakthroughs, and because manpower is so ridiculously short, the balance might be off a tad, especially with those decisions.)
But you really don`t have to!

I`ve played as France for the first time, on very hard difficulty and managed to survive to the start of 1942, because Italy actually broke my defenses in the south, not because Germans managed to break my line in Belgium, I`m sure I can make it longer if I try another round.

That, is far, far better then historical outcome, and I see nothing wrong with that, and why France needs a sort of buff.
 

Peekee

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I think that we are going about this all wrong, the game is about alternate reality, so trying to ensure Germany always defeats France in 2 months is not an alternate reality.

But it should be human players who dictate any large changes from history. The AI left to its own should stay fairly historical. If you are playing USA/USSR/Japan, you really don't want Germany to get stuck in France in terms of interesting game play. Of course you want some variation in there so they can do a little better / worse than in history.

Then it is up to a human player to :

#1 Play smarter than history, E.g. they can avoid making strategic decisions that were historically bad.
#2 Play smarter than the AI. E.g. a human player can do various things to out perform the AI given the same resources.
 

misterbean

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I think that we are going about this all wrong, the game is about alternate reality, so trying to ensure Germany always defeats France in 2 months is not an alternate reality.

Germany should ALWAYS be able to defeat France in the end, whether it takes 4 months, 1 month, or 1 year. Germany has several years of war rearmament, as well as superior tactics and organization. On top of this, the British army is not very well equipped compared to Germany, and has much more to worry about in Naval and airforce then army.

I believe the new factory production system will help reflect a lot of this, as it removes a lot of problems, as well as Germany having a front loaded doctrine system should enable them to always defeat France. Getting stuck on such a small detail as does it happen in 2 months is rather silly IMO in an alternate reality game.

The main problem here is that Germany can't afford to spend a year taking down France. If you get into a real slugfest with them, you will lose so much MP that Barbarossa is hopeless. They cannot afford the MP, fuel and supply losses. Germany wins or loses World War II by its ability to take down France with a minimum of fuss in HOI 3.
 

Dina1954

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This is a lot of myth-making. The Germans only really fought a two-front war for an extremely short period of time - essentially June 1944 to May 1945 - and this is largely because the Western Allies dilly-dallied with the invasion of Western Europe. The handful of Divisions in North Africa and Italy don't really count when that's essentially a drop in the bucket compared to the forces deployed in Russia.

Moreover, what people keep forgetting is that a major factor (if not most important) behind Germany's length of resistance is the weather and geography. The Russian Front really only has about half a year of decent weather for offensive operations because of the thaws.

Finally, the kill rates are bogus because most of the losses are front-loaded in the early days of Barbarossa, when the Germans were shooting up Russian formations still in the middle of mobilization. The Germans in fact didn't do particularly well once the other side started fielding properly mobilized Divisions. "Kampfkraft" is just another one of those subjective nonsense variables that keeps getting brought up by the myth-makers; when in reality the average German soldier by 1944 was much more likely to be an underaged teen with very little military skill or an overaged Great War veteran whose only remaining military skill is the knowledge that war is idiocy to begin with.

The German "initiative" leadership system was also a terribly overrated thing. In freewheeling operations it afforded some brillant successes; but it could also result in outright fiascos like how pretty much the entire Bulge turned out - with German units not able to properly coordinate their movements resulting in one unit getting cut off after another.

A World War 2 general, especially a Corps or Army commander, does in fact have to stay at a proper HQ if he wants to keep coordinating the actions of his entire command. It is simply impossible to command 100,000 men while also dodging enemy bullets. Only Rommel tried that - and his command was frankly tiny because even though he had 9 Divisions under his command he really only used three or four for the most part and they were often understrength to the point they might as well be just one oversized Division. Manstein, Model, and other successful East Front Army commanders by contrast never felt the need to do any of this "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" braggacio that sells very well to the Call of Duty crowd but kills tens of thousands of men due to criminal neglect in real war.

The sad thing is, Western armies actually thought the initiative system was a placebo for the possibility of Soviet tank hordes flooding over the Fulda Gap. When in reality the real end of a NATO-Soviet War would be closer to the ending of the controversial "Red Army" which demonstrates what happens when you have local initiative overriding the strategic picture (namely, NATO thinks it's winning because it won a few tactical battles, when in reality it was already beaten strategically)
So let us see in the end juni 1944 had the allied forces 30 inf. divs and 13 armoured divs fighting the german army about 850000 soldiers allmost 149000 vechichels and 570500 tons of material.(ref. to Janusz Piekalkiewicz second ww 2).As you have said most of the german soldiers was to young or to old and ill trained.Germanys tanks as panthers was not better than sherman tanks.The german warproduktion totally outclassed by the allies.The allied forces have completly airsuperity
so the germans can not assembel any tankforce for attac without enormus casulties.Example the battle of Mortain 7th agust wehre Hawker Typhoons from RAF destroyed 90 tanks 200 vechicels in a couple of minutes (J.Piekalkiewicz).So we
have the artillery they are outclassed in guns and wich are the worst enemy for soldiers.In east 45% of dead soldiers come from russian artillery.Mutch higher in west because the american artilleryman had perfected the superior fire control
methods Now we must also have in mind that mad Adolf did not let his generals retreat in time and some of the best were sact.In 1941 the german nearly reach Moscow in 6 month and they had not that transportnumbers the allied had and
worse climat when the allied forces had in west.So my question is how come the allied armys only had libereted France in 6 months.I think the german leadership is why they could take so much punishment and still go on fighting in 1944-1945.
 

Dalwin

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The main problem here is that Germany can't afford to spend a year taking down France. If you get into a real slugfest with them, you will lose so much MP that Barbarossa is hopeless. They cannot afford the MP, fuel and supply losses. Germany wins or loses World War II by its ability to take down France with a minimum of fuss in HOI 3.

If Germany gets seriously delayed in France, it does not mean they launch a hopeless Barbarossa in '41. It means they delay until '42. Yes the Russians will be somewhat stronger by then, but it cannot even be attempted in '41.
 

jju_57

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Two words why a human France should or even AI France should fall to a human Germany pretty fast. Multi Player. (Or is that one hyphenated word?).

If an AI France or even human France survives for 6+ months against a human Germany that wrecks every single MP game out there. Germany simply will never be able to stand a chance come Barbarossa.

Now PDS has repeatedly said they only have one AI level and that is to make the AI as good as possible. So I doubt if there will be a dumb French AI to let a German AI win.

We all want a hard game. But PDS has said many times that's what the difficulty level is for. To be honest a human controlled France against a German AI should result in a win maybe 5% of the time. In HOI 3 I could win every time.

And I 100% disagree with the game being about alternate reality. The game is 100% about WW2 with different possible outcomes. And yes there is a big difference in those two situations.
 

1alexey

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Two words why a human France should or even AI France should fall to a human Germany pretty fast. Multi Player. (Or is that one hyphenated word?).

If an AI France or even human France survives for 6+ months against a human Germany that wrecks every single MP game out there. Germany simply will never be able to stand a chance come Barbarossa.

And I 100% disagree with the game being about alternate reality. The game is 100% about WW2 with different possible outcomes. And yes there is a big difference in those two situations.
Indeed, allowing Human France to just throw away all the problems France had in history, means the game has to allow Germany to just throw away allied material advantage to compensate, thus turning WW2 into alternative reality where you can just conjure competent general stuff and military production out of thin air.
 

Secret Master

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But you really don`t have to!

I`ve played as France for the first time, on very hard difficulty and managed to survive to the start of 1942, because Italy actually broke my defenses in the south, not because Germans managed to break my line in Belgium, I`m sure I can make it longer if I try another round.

That, is far, far better then historical outcome, and I see nothing wrong with that, and why France needs a sort of buff.

I have to. There's not enough manpower, otherwise.

If I put plain infantry with artillery on the border with Germany, they bleed manpower so quickly that the situation becomes untenable much faster. It's partially the fault of those damn decisions Germany gets that increases speed and ORG and whatnot.

Of course, when I lose as France, it's usually when I overstretch into Italy and fail to force a surrender before the panzers SR south and liberate northern Italy. But that's another discussion.

Two words why a human France should or even AI France should fall to a human Germany pretty fast. Multi Player. (Or is that one hyphenated word?).

If an AI France or even human France survives for 6+ months against a human Germany that wrecks every single MP game out there. Germany simply will never be able to stand a chance come Barbarossa.

Now PDS has repeatedly said they only have one AI level and that is to make the AI as good as possible. So I doubt if there will be a dumb French AI to let a German AI win.

We all want a hard game. But PDS has said many times that's what the difficulty level is for. To be honest a human controlled France against a German AI should result in a win maybe 5% of the time. In HOI 3 I could win every time.

And I 100% disagree with the game being about alternate reality. The game is 100% about WW2 with different possible outcomes. And yes there is a big difference in those two situations.

Question:

In HOI3, should a human player who needs Germany's special decisions to beat France even be playing MP?

It's an honest question. In HOI3, Germany gets special decisions (both for 1939 and Barbarossa) that provide substantial buffs. Other countries get other decisions, but in addition to France having a smaller army than they did historically, and facing the historical disadvantages in material, she is on the receiving end of a special decision that further buffs Germany. (Oh, and France gets her historical population growth disadvantage in the form of a special manpower penalty...)

It's really silly, if you think about it. I know why it was done this way in HOI3, but can you honestly say it is fair that Germany, on top of her historical advantages, which she should have, gets a special decision to help her overrun France and Poland? I mean, I don't need the decisions to defeat the Soviets or France, but you and I both know there are strategies on the HOI3 forum that rely on timing Germany's decisions to maximize their impact. Furthermore, we both know there are house rules in MP games that cover when and how these decisions can be used (usually revolving around rules on when and how the war can start).

After all, the historical situation for the French is bad enough. Why nerf French IC and the OOB from its historical size, and then give Germany a special decision that is more or less and I Win button? Surely the historical advantages Germany enjoys are enough to reproduce historical results most of the time?
 

1alexey

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I have to. There's not enough manpower, otherwise.

If I put plain infantry with artillery on the border with Germany, they bleed manpower so quickly that the situation becomes untenable much faster. It's partially the fault of those damn decisions Germany gets that increases speed and ORG and whatnot.

Of course, when I lose as France, it's usually when I overstretch into Italy and fail to force a surrender before the panzers SR south and liberate northern Italy. But that's another discussion.
I should probably have said it better, you don`t have to use exploits to survive for a few years, as France, even on very hard.

I obviously didn`t put just plain infantry into the frontline, and I had 2 full armored corpses(ARM+2MOT+AC)(that costed me most of my IC pre-war) to reinforce any place Germans attack.
 

jju_57

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SM, HOI3 France was nerfed and you agreed that it was. That is why in MP games a human Germany can defeat a human France in 4 months or so. BTW many games use house rules where France is AI but a human UK can fight there.

But what happens if your wish comes true and France isn't nerfed? Now a human France can easily stall human Germany for 6+ months and maybe even a year with proper UK support. How does that MP game turn out? Two good players for each country must still result in Germany winning fairly quickly. But will a good French player make stupid choices? No so the game needs the nerfs.

But to directly answer your question, yes a player that spends his money has every right to play MP. That is also how they learn. So that player that needs Germany's special buffs still can and should play MP.

Look to me Germany got LUCKY in many ways. This luck exceed what probably should have happened. And it was MANY things that went well for Germany and terrible for the Allies. But here's the point. It happened. But in a game you can't account for all those little things that ended up being huge so the devs took the only route they could. they changed the parameters so Germany could win in around the historic time frame that happened in real life.

My guess is that for MP game reasons, mechanics, gameplay and other things France will be made to fall once again in around 6-12 weeks. I'm sure they will come up with some great new ideas but in the end these idea all limit the capabilities of France in a manner that helps defeat France.
 

Dalwin

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SM, HOI3 France was nerfed and you agreed that it was. That is why in MP games a human Germany can defeat a human France in 4 months or so. BTW many games use house rules where France is AI but a human UK can fight there.

But what happens if your wish comes true and France isn't nerfed? Now a human France can easily stall human Germany for 6+ months and maybe even a year with proper UK support. How does that MP game turn out? Two good players for each country must still result in Germany winning fairly quickly. But will a good French player make stupid choices? No so the game needs the nerfs.

But to directly answer your question, yes a player that spends his money has every right to play MP. That is also how they learn. So that player that needs Germany's special buffs still can and should play MP.

Look to me Germany got LUCKY in many ways. This luck exceed what probably should have happened. And it was MANY things that went well for Germany and terrible for the Allies. But here's the point. It happened. But in a game you can't account for all those little things that ended up being huge so the devs took the only route they could. they changed the parameters so Germany could win in around the historic time frame that happened in real life.

My guess is that for MP game reasons, mechanics, gameplay and other things France will be made to fall once again in around 6-12 weeks. I'm sure they will come up with some great new ideas but in the end these idea all limit the capabilities of France in a manner that helps defeat France.

Absolutely agreed. What should have happened and what did happen were different enough that this is hard to balance properly if we want to see anything resembling historical WWII. Luck was a big part of it.
 

jdavis86

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Something else to be considered is what the phoney war or the "Drolle de Guerre" did to French morale.

When the French mobilized in late '39 those guys were ready to do their duty. Waiting around for action for months, however, led to a huge decline in morale. Some of it was political related, but by the time the Germans came through the disease had grown considerably.

Throughout the Phoney War the British were constantly drilling their troops, if only to give them something to do. The French didn't believe in such tactics, and you can imagine all the good that happens when you have thousands of bored, horny, and in many cases drunk, Frenchmen.

In game terms this is like accumulating dissent or losing org/morale for every month you're not fighting Germans.
 

Beagá

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You are oversimplifying things.

The investment in the West Wall was massive and as events in 1944 would prove, be na EXTREMELY difficult place to attack, and that was against na overextended and tired german army.

Which was not the case in 1939.

The myth that a french attack would be easy is just that - a myth. Unless a BIG BEF was in place to help. Again - it depends a lot on how political matters will be done and any large deviation of history will feel VERY forced if the game starts in 1936 only.
 

Dark Jakkaru

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The sad thing is, Western armies actually thought the initiative system was a placebo for the possibility of Soviet tank hordes flooding over the Fulda Gap. When in reality the real end of a NATO-Soviet War would be closer to the ending of the controversial "Red Army" which demonstrates what happens when you have local initiative overriding the strategic picture (namely, NATO thinks it's winning because it won a few tactical battles, when in reality it was already beaten strategically)

Nice summary for most of the posts beforehand though I would add that most of the history passed down from the Wehrmacht generals wrote "in hindsight" and not in actual situational decisions they made when they didn't have time to find blame, i.e. Hitler. Very careful analysis of those texts in German is most likely needed depending on how their [Wehrmacht generals] responses are worded. The only way around this is direct tactical information passed to and from the front with orders issues and received which is what David Glantz uses a lot of to build a proper "in-time" analysis of the events.

Of course, I quoted the above as we're missing something post WW2 and that is the Nuclear Option. Strategically no one know who would have won that war if the countdown did go to mid-night. Most intelligent folks realize it would be the end of Civilization as there would be no clear winner if the true "strategic" weapons were used as no one could see victory in light of such nuclear consequences.
 

Dark Jakkaru

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Enacting the Anschluss increases threat, so there is a trade off.

There is a perfectly valid and interesting alternate historical track to take by not enacting the Anschluss at the standard time. And in that game, I could have never enacted the Anschluss if I didn't want to. I could have put them in the Axis as an ally instead.

I don't understand why people think they can't do interesting ahistorical things in HOI3. Germany is practically in the drivers seat for all things. While an AI Germany will lock-step its way through history (at least until the Soviets are defeated), a human Germany can change history radically.

Thanks for the LINK! I haven't see that one before and really like the explanations given about the threat system working.
 

1alexey

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If anything, it was discovered by the end of the war that defense was stronger than ever. What was just lacking was a comprehensive doctrine on how to properly employ these new tools of war in a defensive posture. To demonstrate the doctrinal gap - the Soviets for instance had only something like 10 pages in their 1941 field manual regarding defensive operations. By 1943, it was half the manual, showing how much the Soviets grew to appreciate and develop their defensive tactics.

The US Army similarly thought of its Armored Division in purely offensive terms - resulting in the initial organization having three tank regiments per Division and nothing else. The Fort Leavenworth exercises then taught the armored forces troops the strength and power of proper defense, which is why they rapidly changed their organization to include mechanized infantry and artillery - both of which are primarily "move offensively, but fight defensively" kind of units.

Really, World War 2 showed that a single battalion on the defensive - utilizing radio to call in artillery and airpower - can now annihilate an entire "elite" Armored Division; like how one battalion of National Guard stopped cold the entire Das Reich at Mortain. It doesn't matter if you have more artillery and airpower to pound that defending battalion - so long as one spotter in the battalion survives with a working radio your attacking Division is going to have a very bad day.
"Stronger than ever" hardly qualifies.
At the similar numbers, German troops could`ve hold the Soviet front almost indefinitely in WW1, but collapsed in a space of less than 2 years in ww2.

You still have to have the air power, and your own artillery is far more in danger, as a great deal of counter-battering fire is available.
Your logistics and reinforcements are extremely compromised, and nobody has to break everywhere, you need a rather small gap, and then something like Bagration can easily happen.
Your example is terrible, as Germans were at huge disadvantage overall in 1944, especially in terms of artillery quality and range.
Yes, the case of one entrenched battalion stopped a division did happened, but look at the other side of things, how Both Germans and Soviets
could often break through the defenses in a meter of hours.
And yes, it does meter with how many guns you pond the enemy, when you`re attacking, where did you get the idiocy that it doesn`t?

Did I also need to mention that Airpower never "annihilated" anything in WW2, it is statistically proven that it`s effect was mostly in forcing enemies maintenance increase, and reducing the combat readiness, while casualties were pretty minor.

In WW1, Allies took almost 3 killed for each German when attacking on Western front. In WW2, the casualty ratio was almost even, both for German offensive in 1940, and Soviet offensives in 1944.

Defenses were important, defense was important, but not nearly as strong strategically as it was in WW1.
You're forgetting frontage issues.
I`m not. In WW2 attacking division could assume anything from 10-15 km to merely 1.5 km of frontage.

If you want, have a good hard look at what happened at the battle of Kursk. Defences didn`t slow the German army nearly enough, they broke way faster than expected, which forced Soviets to commit their reserves way faster, and caused, for example battle of Prokhorovka where Sovet counter-attack faced way stronger German forces.
Defencive line in the south, that was prepared for month, was broken really fast, and counter-attack fas nececery to stabilise the front.

Now consider that in Battle of Kursk, the defenders, Soviets, had almost 1.3M man to German 900k, they lost noticeable more man then Germans.

Now, the battle of Kursk, was basically more or less similar thing to Battle for Belgium in terms of size, but this time, Germans would have ~20% advantage, due to losing the "divisions of questionable quality", which, by the way, both Germans and France had plenty of.
 
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Dalwin

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Even though aircraft did not directly cause that much destruction, just as you say, isn't it true that air superiority and proper integration of close support aircraft into operations were key elements of success during the war?

Looking at the liberation of France, for example, the ability of the Allies to interdict almost anything that moved behind the lines had significant impact on what was happening at the front. Then you have the concept of recon. It is clearly an advantage to have a better idea of your enemy's dispositions than he has of yours.
 
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