How much more are you going to nerf Ming?

ianchen12345

Major
39 Badges
Mar 31, 2016
674
368
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
Not to be that guy, but I spent several paragraphs illustrating how the EoC mechanics reflect historical developments in Imperial China.


I'm playing a Ming game right now and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. What on earth do mission trees have to do with how much fun a country is to play? Mission trees could be completely removed from the game and nothing of value would be lost. EoC? It's much more interesting than yet another feudal monarchy with legitimacy mechanics. WC? Get outta here. If people want to do a WC, that's their business, but the game shouldn't be balanced around WC.
You think the mandate of Heaven really reflect what happened in real life? Like Ming can just ask people for ducats/stuff every few years or so? That's not what happened. The reverse is what happened which I have discussed about it in the forum back before Mandate of Heaven DLC is out. In real life, Ming usually send luxurious gifts to the tributaries instead of receiving them. Like do you think Ming would be so happy to receive some "fish" from Ryukyu?

Is the system fun? Back before mission tree was introduced we have these "missions" that can appear at random. And Ming has very few of these "missions" compared to the most majors in EU4. Even with so many freakin patches later, still the same. Mission tree didn't really add anything new to Ming tree.

Yes I can agree with you that the EoC mechanic is unique compared to most other countries but that is only true with the DLC MoH on. So people with no MoH (which is not the highest priority in terms of DLC purchase) would just have this generic blob that has nothing to do?

No one said anything about balancing the tag with WCs at all. If so, then hordes would need a huge nerf wouldn't it?
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Word_Smith

Court Complainer
77 Badges
Sep 25, 2012
118
669
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines
You think the mandate of Heaven really reflect what happened in real life? Like Ming can just ask people for ducats/stuff every few years or so? That's not what happened. The reverse is what happened which I have discussed about it in the forum back before Mandate of Heaven DLC is out. In real life, Ming usually send luxurious gifts to the tributaries instead of receiving them. Like do you think Ming would be so happy to receive some "fish" from Ryukyu?
I mean you can read my previous posts in the thread if you want clarification. Obviously EoC/tributary mechanics are an abstraction. Obviously the Emperor historically probably didn't care about getting fish from the coast of Okinawa, but the game doesn't simulate the direct transfer of resources i.e. Victoria 2. Tribute is measured as gifts of ducats/monarch power because that's what the game is able to simulate.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "Ming usually send luxurious gifts to the tributaries instead of receiving them", but you are able to send gifts to tributaries as EoC. There are even events where you may reward loyal tributaries with gifts. It's not like the game portrays the tributary relationship as one-way.
oh no I argue things that are true to history. I was the one back in many patches ago to tell the devs to remove Manchu as part of Chinese culture because it doesnt make sense. So they removed it and people raged..
In my current Ming game, Manchu is still within the Chinese culture group. Unless you're implying that they changed it and then changed it back right away. I personally don't care either way, though I'm pretty sure Manchu is in the Chinese culture group to allow Qing to form more easily if Ming collapses.

You see, there are people who just didn't accept that a powerful eastern nation won't be easily conquered in real history, instead, blamed those who says the truth and accused them of "complain that their own IRL country/culture".
Ming collapsed despite its strength and wealth, and the pieces got conquered by the Manchu. If you don't think reflecting that in-game is historical, I don't know what to tell you.
 
Last edited:
  • 5
Reactions:

lilunxm12

Sergeant
67 Badges
Jun 24, 2016
97
158
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Dungeonland
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • The Showdown Effect
Also, I don't know what you mean by "Ming usually send luxurious gifts to the tributaries instead of receiving them", but you are able to send gifts to tributaries as EoC. There are even events where you may reward loyal tributaries with gifts. It's not like the game portrays the tributary relationship as one-way.
Ming always response tributes with extraordinary generous gifts to show mercy. So nations took advantage of that.
Some traders even disgused as foreign delegates to trade luxuries with garbage.
That caused a heavy burden and later Ming has to set up a special agency to regulate how frequent could each country sending tributes
 
  • 2Haha
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

DebbieElla

♥ Forum Community Manager ♥
Administrator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Demi Moderator
Mar 4, 2019
773
1.280
Reminder: Do not respond to trolls, just report and move on and the moderators will handle it. Do follow the rules, and be respectful.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

iClipse

Major
18 Badges
Jul 17, 2019
563
1.636
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
Manchu culture was changed to Evenk culture i think in 1.20-21? I thought that given your account is 2012 you should remember stuff like that.
Jurchen is Evenk. But it changes to manchu because of a mission (or forming Manchu itself? Can't remember exactly). After the change it's in the Chinese culture group.
 

genyuab

Second Lieutenant
22 Badges
Jan 25, 2012
112
199
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
Ming collapsed despite its strength and wealth, and the pieces got conquered by the Manchu. If you don't think reflecting that in-game is historical, I don't know what to tell you.

Ming collapsed in 1644, not 1500s, and not because of unreasonable "Crisis of the Ming Dynasty". You don't need to tell me anything because I completely understand you
 
  • 5Haha
  • 1
Reactions:

JacobiteJames

Second Lieutenant
Nov 11, 2021
156
135
Jurchen is Evenk. But it changes to manchu because of a mission (or forming Manchu itself? Can't remember exactly). After the change it's in the Chinese culture group.
When it forms manchu, which made it awkward as no one could reform manchu when this first happened, as it required jurchen provinces which no longer existed.
Kinda accurate as the manchu weren't fully sinicised in 1444, and it helps ming not conquer the jurchen tribes, keeping them as triubtary instead
 

gigau

Imperare Orbis Universi
Demi Moderator
216 Badges
May 4, 2005
42.670
7.265
46
www.twitch.tv
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Diplomacy
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Paradox Order
  • PDXCON 2017 Gold Ticket holder
  • PDXCON 2018 "The Emperor"
  • PDXCon 2019 "King"
  • PDXCon 2017 Awards Winner
Closing this thread for a bit as a reminder to remain calm and respectful and respect everyone.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

gigau

Imperare Orbis Universi
Demi Moderator
216 Badges
May 4, 2005
42.670
7.265
46
www.twitch.tv
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Diplomacy
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Paradox Order
  • PDXCON 2017 Gold Ticket holder
  • PDXCON 2018 "The Emperor"
  • PDXCon 2019 "King"
  • PDXCon 2017 Awards Winner
Unlocking the thread.

Remember to be civil and respectful, whether you disagree or not.

Consider this a last warning.
 

genyuab

Second Lieutenant
22 Badges
Jan 25, 2012
112
199
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
Ming always response tributes with extraordinary generous gifts to show mercy. So nations took advantage of that.
Some traders even disgused as foreign delegates to trade luxuries with garbage.
That caused a heavy burden and later Ming has to set up a special agency to regulate how frequent could each country sending tributes
The frequency of tribute is regulated by the first emperor of Ming and the seaban was lifted in 1567.
"trade luxuries with garbage", source, please?
The attachment is one of contemporary research that supports my point of the trading aspect of the tributary system.
 

Attachments

  • 论明代朝贡贸易的商业价值_吕钟良.pdf
    1,8 MB · Views: 0
  • 1
  • 1Haha
Reactions:

holyvigil

General
47 Badges
Oct 15, 2016
1.855
1.466
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
IMO Ming does not need to break apart more often. I think that EoC's Unify China CB needs to be buffed. I understand it's one of the most powerful cbs in the game. But China should really be unifed in one ruler's life time. It's a very limited CB limited to only China so making it even more powerful doesn't matter that much. The only thing buffing unify China cb does is unify china quicker.

Alternatively give anyone who claims EOC cores on all of China.
 
  • 6
  • 1Like
Reactions:

JacobiteJames

Second Lieutenant
Nov 11, 2021
156
135
IMO Ming does not need to break apart more often. I think that EoC's Unify China CB needs to be buffed. I understand it's one of the most powerful cbs in the game. But China should really be unifed in one ruler's life time. It's a very limited CB limited to only China so making it even more powerful doesn't matter that much. The only thing buffing unify China cb does is unify china quicker.
Yes
Alternatively give anyone who claims EOC cores on all of China.
No perma claims and -1000 reasons to tributaries in china super region sans tibet and manchuria
 
  • 2
Reactions:

PrussicAcid

First Lieutenant
28 Badges
Nov 5, 2018
281
817
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II
IMO Ming does not need to break apart more often. I think that EoC's Unify China CB needs to be buffed. I understand it's one of the most powerful cbs in the game. But China should really be unifed in one ruler's life time. It's a very limited CB limited to only China so making it even more powerful doesn't matter that much. The only thing buffing unify China cb does is unify china quicker.

Alternatively give anyone who claims EOC cores on all of China.

You can give AI all the cores you want, it will only tributarise its neighbors as soon as possible.

Tributarisation needs to be reworked between chinese TAGs if you want this solution to work properly.
 

Word_Smith

Court Complainer
77 Badges
Sep 25, 2012
118
669
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines
I'll be honest, after my recent Ming game, I can not in any way see how some people can conclude that Ming is too weak/too nerfed. This was a very casual game where I was more concerned with nice borders than blobbing (still sad I couldn't grab the rest of Burma from Bengal). The crisis of the Ming Dynasty disaster was the only time in the game where I didn't feel like the immortal god-bully of east Asia. It was thoroughly fun, and EoC/tributary mechanics only enhanced the experience.

Borders
ming1.png
Culture (I'm a culture-conversion fanatic)
ming3.png
Chinese Culture (yeah, I convert culture-group cultures too, sue me)
ming2.png
Religion (All harmonized except Pagan/Dharmic)
ming4.png
Economy
1638107656277.png
Great Powers/Hegemons
ming5.png
Americas (for interest's sake)
1638107292567.png

If anything, Ming is too stable in the late game, leading me to miss out on playing revolutionary China even though the revolution spawned in Beijing.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
Reactions:

Victoria 3 finally

Second Lieutenant
1 Badges
May 30, 2021
111
406
  • Crusader Kings II
IMO Ming does not need to break apart more often. I think that EoC's Unify China CB needs to be buffed. I understand it's one of the most powerful cbs in the game. But China should really be unifed in one ruler's life time. It's a very limited CB limited to only China so making it even more powerful doesn't matter that much. The only thing buffing unify China cb does is unify china quicker.

Alternatively give anyone who claims EOC cores on all of China.
The Qing are a special case in how fast they conquered China. The average is usually between 100-50 years.