How many tanks and SPART should Germany have on 1/1/1940?

[BurdenedWarrior]

I really don´t know where you two get that from. Germany had 10 Panzer-Divisions not 12. However, the Polish and French campaigns has proved that the Panzer divisions were too heavily armored. Instead, they lacked supportive motorized infantry. Thats the reason why germany splitted the Divisions and added 1 more mot. Infantry-Regiment.

The new Tank-Divisions got around 30% more Tanks per Regiment than the old ones.

"Guderian said that he opposed Hitler's directive to split up existing divisions' panzer regiments, in order to double the number of panzer divisions. In Guderian's view, it decreased their power, while doubling the need for support equipment and personnel."

From his wiki page. Possible source
Guderian, Heinz (1952). Panzer Leader. New York

Sorry I was pulling 12 from memory. I knew it was around there

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

amalric de g. is correct when he states that the early German Panzer divisions had too many tanks. Almost all of the early WWII tank divisions were tank heavy. Combat experience showed that a closer ratio of armored to infantry battalions (1:1) was preferred. Not to mention that this also usually occurred with a shift from HoI4 "light" tanks to "medium" tanks.

Guderian initially opposed the reduction in a divisions panzer regiments. He was correct, as long as you were comparing light tanks to light tanks. Once you considered the medium tanks instead, the combat effectiveness of the reduced panzer regiment division was greater than the earlier two (2) panzer regiments with light tanks only. I believe Guderian changed his opinion later, though I could be remembering wrong.

And regardless of the above, the attempt to have twenty (20) Panzer divisions (with one panzer regiment) was about the limit that German tank production could handle in Early/Mid-War.

 

[Spenny91]

For germany in general I structure my forces to where I have infantry armies (7INF 2ART w/ support ENG, REC, AT) and panzer armies.
They comprise of:
- 6 Light tank divisions (4 Tanks, 2 SPART, 4 mot w/ support eng, maintenance and recon)
- 6 Motorized divisions (9 mot w/ support recon, arty and engineer)
- 8 medium tank divisions (4 tanks, 2 SPART, 4 mot w/ support eng, maintenance and recon)
- Later into 1941 4 tiger divisions (4 heavy tanks, 2SPART, 4 mot w/ support eng, maintenance and recon)

By Barbarossa in June 1941 I had 2 20 division panzer armies with no heavy armour divisions.

By poland and france it's not unusual to only have 6 motorized and 6 light divisions, but rarely I may have my 8 medium divisions too.

I really like it cause the mot and light divisions are stupid quick, the mediums are the meat of the army and the heavies are the icing on the cake by 1942/1943.

 

[amalric de g.]

"Guderian said that he opposed Hitler's directive to split up existing divisions' panzer regiments, in order to double the number of panzer divisions. In Guderian's view, it decreased their power, while doubling the need for support equipment and personnel."

From his wiki page. Possible source
Guderian, Heinz (1952). Panzer Leader. New York

Sorry I was pulling 12 from memory. I knew it was around there

Thanks for the Information. I looked in the german version and there was nothing written that he opposed it. But i think germany was allready at their limit with 20 Tank-Divisions, the supply was not good and the factories couldn´t replace the losses from the polish and french campaign until early/mid 1941. The final nail in the coffin was the horrendous losses in Barbarossa.

 

[Holdy]

I just leave this hear for the historical discussion. Not sure how accurate the original source is, tho.

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Stats/WW2_German_Div_Count.htm

As it was pointed out already, the historical german Tank-Division Template switched. For France and Poland the tank divisons had mostly 2 tank regiments and 1 mot. infantry. So in average the germans had about 250-300 tanks (mostly light obviously) per divison for the attack on France. Counting 10 divisions, means Germany had around 3.000 tanks ready for France. Wikipedia says around 2.500 which defenitly would fit, considering not every single tank was used for the attack on France (e.g. Panzer-Abteilung 40 z.b.V.).

 

[C-Breeze]

"Guderian said that he opposed Hitler's directive to split up existing divisions' panzer regiments, in order to double the number of panzer divisions. In Guderian's view, it decreased their power, while doubling the need for support equipment and personnel."

From his wiki page. Possible source
Guderian, Heinz (1952). Panzer Leader. New York

Sorry I was pulling 12 from memory. I knew it was around there

I thought 10 from memory, but I said 10 or 12 in my previous post because I didn't see the point in quibbling. It's not like it was the most crucial point in the discussion, rather the main point was the dilution in the number of panzer regiments which I thought was well known as a matter of historic record. Apparently some people haven't read that history.

Anyhow, cheers for the post!

 

[BurdenedWarrior]

I know the Americans did a similar thing after operation torch in North Africa. The 3rd amoured (don't think they fought there) was one of two divisions that was kept under the "heavy" model. So in comparison the 4th and the 3rd American division were both armored but the 3rd was considered "light" and the other "heavy." Not in style of tanks but numbers mind you.

 

[Secret Master]

In Guderian's view, it decreased their power, while doubling the need for support equipment and personnel."

Strangely enough, that's how it works in HOI4. You can get away with less support equipment for support companies if you roll with 40 width divisions as opposed to twice as many 20 width divisions.

 

[Magnificent Genius]

I usually aim for 20 Panzer Divisions, and an equal number of Motorized for the opening of Barbarossa.

Also, is the double-click to select all units of a type functionality broken? It hasn't worked for me all month.

 

[Secret Master]

How much SPART?

 

[LiberiusX]

I try have at least 16 or so 20w light armored divisions for the invasion of France. It makes the invasion go by so much faster. Then, I start rotating in MARM and deploying new MARM divisions as I can.

Sometimes I’ll lend out the LARM leftovers, or put one or two of these divisions in my Barbarossa armies to run rampant behind the Soviet lines and mess up their supply situation .

 

[iquabakaner]

Many historians suggest Hitler was obsessed with numbers and wanted more Panzer Division pins to push around on the map.

I'm picturing Hitler playing HOI4 and changed the armor template to a bad one just to make more divisions.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

I'm picturing Hitler playing HOI4 and changed the armor template to a bad one just to make more divisions.

... and complaining that it cost experience points to make that change.

 

[LiberiusX]

I'm picturing Hitler playing HOI4 and changed the armor template to a bad one just to make more divisions.

... and complaining that it cost experience points to make that change.

Pretty sure there is a downfall parody showing exactly this.

 

[Secret Master]

Pretty sure there is a downfall parody showing exactly this.

If those videos didn't have swastikas in them, I'd go find it and post it myself.

Instead, I'll post this gif instead. Because if the templates cost XP, we all know whose fault it is:

 

[C-Breeze]

Pretty sure there is a downfall parody showing exactly this.

I saw a Hoi (2 or 3 ) play through with Hitler spliced in as the German player. Totally confident and closed off to any advice. Next thing you know the video cuts to the French and British rolling up on Berlin shortly after the opening salvo in the West. It was so funny I almost fell off my chair.

 

[bERt0r]

I saw a Hoi (2 or 3 ) play through with Hitler spliced in as the German player. Totally confident and closed off to any advice. Next thing you know the video cuts to the French and British rolling up on Berlin shortly after the opening salvo in the West. It was so funny I almost fell off my chair.

Post link pls!

 

[C-Breeze]

Post link pls!

Not sure I can post it here ('cause it's got swastikas in it). But if you go to YouTube and search 'Hitler plays Hoi3' - it's the first result.