How many of you miss the old HOI2 tech team system?

[Secret Master]

Personally I would quite like the whole tech system to be completely upended and changed to be more true to life. WW2 tech was really all about stuff that barely registers in the game. Most basic weapons used in WW2 realistically had 2 generations at most. Everyone started the war with a rifle and we the only real change was Germany starting to mass produce the SG44. MG development was basically production engineering. Artillery was everyone replacing their WW1 gun models. The real tech stuff was split into to lines of activity are development of additional infantry weapons (RPG stuff), new munition designs, steadily improving aero engines, radar stuff, improved radios, radar, air navigation and so on. I feel like the game would gain a lot in terms of WW2 feel if the basic weapon systems were basically just there and tech was all about adding icing to the cake.

In fairness to the current system, infantry weapons are a pretty low priority for most games. There are even players who may never bother putting newer infantry kits into production, or only research the techs when ahead of time penalties are getting out of hand for other things that are far more important (planes, for example).

I'm glad the artillery tree is cross-compatible with tanks and other stuff, though.

 

[kaguravitro]

mybe its much flavour, but its better, and i dont mind why a small country should not get very back in tech, thets becose intelligence was so good to use (no to deal with) in darkest hour for example. the module reserch was much much ,much better and feels teasty. Its a must be to recall it back. you can keep the reserch boost from actual companies, but get the personalities back to countries.
The better of that system its that you cant probable exept usa and uk reserch 5 naval reserch at the same time.

 

[mursolini]

Didn't USSR switch their line infantry to use the PPSh as their main weapon? Hmm, which is probably a cost-efficient alternative to the assault rifle: In the hands of most troops, there is little to no loss of effective range, and it is simpler to manufacture full-auto than select fire.

Only some, select parts of divisions, if at all.
Despite PPShs reputation, there was noticeable drop in performance, even in hands of Soviet troops, hence rifles were never phased out. Also, assault rifles were very cheap, STG44 was probably notably cheaper then Kar98.

• On rifles, many nations went through the entire war using the rifle they started with. This choice had little to with technology as everyone (pretty much) new how to make self-loading rifles but only the USA decided they could afford them. The Soviets had a perfectly good design but didn't produce it as their main infantry weapon. These are decisions about cost and effectiveness balance

If only that was true. Soviets struggled to produce decent variant for ~4 years, Germany- more.
It's not just a case of making a rifle, it has to be reliable enough for troops to use(and cheap), which is something everyone struggled with.

• The point I was making about aircraft is that the technology improvement wasn't really the new aircraft designs, they were the continuous striving to improve engines. There were lots of ME this and that which were designed as replacements for the ME109 which simply weren't any better than the improved ME109. These aren't a failure of technology research, they are a failure of an individual design. Just bear in mind that the UK used Spitfires throughout the war as their air defence interceptor.

Well, some engine improvement required frame redesign to fit in new parts, like intercooler or supercharger/turbocharger stages, ex. Planes got larger and heavier through the war.

I just feel it would be nice if there was this separation between model design and underlying technology so we can have the effects of lead time of developing new equipment and failure of designs. If you had to start designing a tank a year before getting the design and then it might be a bit wonky and you have to redesign for 6 months to improve the design before even beginning to ramp up production this would give a whole new nuance to the game.

For example, I can field a force of say PzIV tanks armed with predominantly soft attack based weapons and then instantly radically redesign it with a proper cannon and slopped armour with barely a blip in production which also instantly converts.

I suppose my main point is that I think the difference between older HOI tech systems and the current one are far less important than the poor way the HOI tech system reflects the actual technology progress in war.

Yes, but game doesn't have to be extremely realistic at that regard, since in most cases there were multiple design teams, so depending on how much money and companies you could throw at problem, and general tech level of your industry. In both cases the issue of money and people.

 

[Corpse Fool]

In fairness to the current system, infantry weapons are a pretty low priority for most games. There are even players who may never bother putting newer infantry kits into production

I've started seeing a lot more of the complete opposite being said, that your infantry equipment is one of the higher priorities. This has only been more true in the east asian and afrikan theaters more than others, due to supply and fuel concerns. If you're already capped out on vehicles and artillery you can use, the only other avenue to upgrade your forces (save for air) would be the infantry. Europe and the powers that fight there still seem to benefit from leaning more into tanks though.

 

[Secret Master]

Europe and the powers that fight there still seem to benefit from leaning more into tanks though.

I guess that is closer to what I meant. Bigger countries fighting in places with enough airfields and logistics to support planes and tanks.

 

[ctl3]

HOI4 needs some way to differentiate research capability between countries. I don't like the approach of tech team in HOI2. The logic of tech team sounds like "A nation research certain thing faster because they were good at it historically". The knowledge system in HOI3 looks more reasonable for me: "A nation research certain thing faster because they dedicate resource and accumulate experience". As a result I probably want a hybrid of HOI3 and HOI4 research system.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

Ctl3, that´s what I mean too. The Combination of old and new Features. Hoi 4 in the Base-Version wasn´t good in many Parts, that get Fixed with the DLCs Contents in the first important / secondary already. There are many Features from Hoi 2 and 3 already in the Game, which are easy to handle.

1. Hoi 2 Feature: The Decissions you have in Hoi 4 for Political, Industry, Speeches and so on. Not everything was integrated in Hoi 2 or the Hoi 2 Upgrade-Parts.

2. Hoi 2 Feature: Ship- / Tank-Designer you have in Hoi 4. If I remember me correctly back there were only the Ship-Designer for Hoi 2.

3. Hoi 2 or 3 Feature: The Seazones and Duty-Things for Ships in Hoi 4.

4. Hoi 2 / 3 Feature: The Spy System comes back in Hoi 4. It´s much easyer to Handle then in the Predecessors.

5. Hoi 2 / 3 Feature: The Army-Designer for buildup Devisions.

And the Features which get already integrated from both Predecessors which are usefull.


Where I give you all right is the Fact, that Hoi 4 have more Work to do. There are enough old 32 Bit Features which hold back Potential:

1. The R & D-System have to be more polished, esp. with the older R & D-Feature for Ships and Industry.

2. The R & D-System for the Army need much more work, esp. for the Refit for the Airforce, because Navy and Airforce are hanging in that R & D-System too for 80 to 90 % [Aircraft-Engines, Main-Weapons for the Airforce, some Secondary-Weapons for the Navy and so on]

3. The Ministers, Industry-Barons and so on in the Parlament could be have more cool Bonuses / Advantiges and similar

4. An Airforce-Refit with World-Map, Orders, Airzones like for the Ships the Seazones and an Research-System like for the Tanks / Ships.

5. The Realsim of Building up / Restoration the Navy, Airforce and Army.

6. The Integration of Focusses with Decissions and Industry.

And all the Points I don´t have in Mind yet, which are good from the Predecessors and easy to integrate that the 80 % to 90 % Mainstream and the 10 % to 20 % Experts / Veterans are happy with it. The big But is that they are easy to handle. Such Functions were to complex in both Predecessors, why they are getting Shopkeepers or if they get buyed Dust Catchers for the Mainstream-Players.

The Steps with the DLC-Integrations and the Free Patches Inclusions for Modders, Gamers incl. Bugfixes etc. from 1.0.1 up to 1.11.10 Beta are very good Steps forward, but can only the Beginning. The important Steps were the Return of Espionage, Navy-Refit, Army-Refit, Reworked Supply System, Autonomy-System, Officer Corps, Equipment Conversion, Puppet Interactions as well as Focus Trees for the important Nations for Axis, Communist and Democratic Countrys.

Some Focus Trees get missing (like for the Colonys of the already done important Nations) and secondary important Countrys (like Scandinavia, South-America / Africa / Arabia).

The best combination of all I have seen in the Ultra Historical Mod [Focusses, Decissions, Timelines, Industry, Ressources etc.] and for more R & D and Timeline the 1930-Mod from all big Mods I have seen and especially played. Some small / medium ones give good Ideas too to upgrade the Base-Game and DLCs without to much Changes [Real Amount of Tanks, Devisions f. e.].

I don´t miss the Tech-Team-System fully, because with the Indutry-Advisors in Hoi 4 and esp. with the Mod more Advisors [More military Industrial Enterprises] you get an cool Mix of all.

 

[kaguravitro]

The modular techs and the companies to develop world be bout so complex to rebuilt, in hoi iv way of handle things, stern they could get better with the development of techs, so you can get a good one or use 2 at a time to get 2 betters one, like in other parts of game. Also restrict multiple research on the same field.

Should also a negative effect of get outdated in techs or unbalanced

 

[Qwerlancer]

I guess the point is to make R&D fun. A simple solution is implement Soviet like "Plant Merge" feature for every countries, paying PP to improve current designers. A deeper solution is relate R&D to consumer goods. If you invest more money(CICs), you research faster and easily to reach next-level/advanced technologies. If your countries is poor as beggar, then it will have a very limited R&D capability and unable to reach advanced techs.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

We will see what the next big Version and DLC bring out.

like said, the R & D-Part isn’t finished. The Airforce have to be made like Ships / Tanks, the Economy and Electronic Tech get an Refit too. The Specials in the Electronic-Tech (Nuke etc.) get an Special-Project-Part, what is since longer planed.
Last but not Least the Army-Tech have to get more work, to get more usefulness.

For the Rest (Advisors etc.) we will see. There are very cool Mods to upgrade the (more Industry something and Mods for the R & D-Parts (esp. the Heavy Things like Arty, AA, Industry etc.).

 

[Parsimonia]

It's the thing I miss the most. I loved juggling them to use their abilities efficiently.

 

[coffeelingfine]

I thought it was tedious mostly

 

[kaguravitro]

We will see what the next big Version and DLC bring out.

like said, the R & D-Part isn’t finished. The Airforce have to be made like Ships / Tanks, the Economy and Electronic Tech get an Refit too. The Specials in the Electronic-Tech (Nuke etc.) get an Special-Project-Part, what is since longer planed.
Last but not Least the Army-Tech have to get more work, to get more usefulness.

For the Rest (Advisors etc.) we will see. There are very cool Mods to upgrade the (more Industry something and Mods for the R & D-Parts (esp. the Heavy Things like Arty, AA, Industry etc.).

i doubt we need modular planes, but better variant system, we need the non present planes, long range naval plane and fighter bomber. modular tanks wasnt so good, its much flavour
the other are good