How many of you miss the old HOI2 tech team system?

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him_15

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To be honest, I am not a fan of the current system where you basically just select a single tech team, gain some research bonus and it pretty much sticks here for the rest of the game. The old system in HOI2 was much more historically accurate and flexible where you select a tech team and a project for it to research. Each tech team has its own area of strength and weakness. So I would pick Junker to research CAS and Henkel to research TAC, etc. It's just way more interesting. Thought?
 
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Dlin369

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I didn’t play hoi2 but I’m personally okay with the current system. It may not be particularly realistic but it does the trick and is reasonably influenceable by designers, focuses, and other bonuses. I wouldn’t mind a revamp of the system but I don’t think its a top priority for the game
 
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While tech teams in hoi2 added a lot of flavor, these, too, had their problems.

For one, nations with a lot of them only had a few good ones, with which you did all of your research. The rest was left rotting on the wayside.

But is was mainly a way to keep nations artificially worse in some (or even all) tech fields than other nations by having less skilled tech teams. Hoi4 uses different mechanics to achieve that outcome.
 

Aubrey

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To be honest, I am not a fan of the current system where you basically just select a single tech team, gain some research bonus and it pretty much sticks here for the rest of the game. The old system in HOI2 was much more historically accurate and flexible where you select a tech team and a project for it to research. Each tech team has its own area of strength and weakness. So I would pick Junker to research CAS and Henkel to research TAC, etc. It's just way more interesting. Thought?

In the old days we had tech teams and HQ range and planes with actual range, and we liked it! Now we have I-Win buttons and ever-changng fronts and teleporting bombers...not to mention silliness like communist Japan and Hapsburg Poland.

Pour one out for the lost — the old days are gone but not forgotten...


Note for the irony impaired: this was (mostly) a weak attempt at humor.
 
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Hoi Neuling

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Teleporting Bombers we don’t have in Hoi 4. Then the Humanity would have Star Trek Technologies in that Timeline.

“Kirk to Transporter Room. 1 Person to Beam from America to Japan.”

That’s what you mean.

Instead the Devs make it like every other Dev-Studios. The Planes get an destination from that Airport to that Airport.

And they fly to it like you can see on the Airforce-Map. Sometimes with Stops, sometimes without, which takes time. Several hours / Days they need too like in reality.

That is easy to manage and everybody is happy.

The Airforce will be refitet, but the compromise between Mainstream and the maximum 20 % Veterans/ Experts have to be found, like it’s done in the Basics for the Army and Navy.

And for the Airforce it’s not so easy in the Geoscape-Part. The R & D is much more easy to manage like for Army / Navy.
 
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Aubrey

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Teleporting Bombers we don’t have in Hoi 4. Then the Humanity would have Star Trek Technologies in that Timeline.

“Kirk to Transporter Room. 1 Person to Beam from America to Japan.”

That’s what you mean.

Instead the Devs make it like every other Dev-Studios. The Planes get an destination from that Airport to that Airport.

And they fly to it like you can see on the Airforce-Map. Sometimes with Stops, sometimes without, which takes time. Several hours / Days they need too like in reality.

That is easy to manage and everybody is happy.

The Airforce will be refitet, but the compromise between Mainstream and the maximum 20 % Veterans/ Experts have to be found, like it’s done in the Basics for the Army and Navy.

And for the Airforce it’s not so easy in the Geoscape-Part. The R & D is much more easy to manage like for Army / Navy.
No, they teleport. If they didn’t beam from Britain to Berlin, the 8 million fighters I put up over the Channel would shoot own at least one or two of them...
 
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HugsAndSnuggles

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No, they teleport. If they didn’t beam from Britain to Berlin, the 8 million fighters I put up over the Channel would shoot own at least one or two of them...
Even worse: you can dominate space above their airbases and it would do noting to stop their planes from taking off and operate in other airzones.
 
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kimidf

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I personally liked the HOI II research system because it explained in greater detail what it was investigating and its requirements, plus industrial technology was more relevant in general in different areas
 
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I do miss it. And I think that marrying it with the current "research designer" (not the "build your own tank" designer) system would be enough to give flavour to units without having to retort to the cumbersome and impossible to balance tank and ship designers.
 
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I don't miss them at all.

But I do want to address something that is problematic in the current system:

To be honest, I am not a fan of the current system where you basically just select a single tech team, gain some research bonus and it pretty much sticks here for the rest of the game.

The high PP cost of appointing design companies does mean that you pick the best one and stick with it most of the game. Yes, in early HOI4, I did sometimes swap out design companies, but that was when you didn't need as much PP by 1941.

I wouldn't mind a smaller PP cost for appointing design companies once you have the initial one appointed. 150 PP for a permanent research boost is reasonable, but paying another 150 PP to swap out non-research design company bonuses is kind of odd (since most design companies have the same research boost). If instead you paid 150 PP to appoint that first design company, but if you swapped it for another one, you only paid 75 or so, we'd see more reasons to swap them around.
 
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I wouldn't mind a smaller PP cost for appointing design companies once you have the initial one appointed. 150 PP for a permanent research boost is reasonable, but paying another 150 PP to swap out non-research design company bonuses is kind of odd (since most design companies have the same research boost). If instead you paid 150 PP to appoint that first design company, but if you swapped it for another one, you only paid 75 or so, we'd see more reasons to swap them around.
Hmm, maybe 150 PP per company to unlock it, then 50 PP each time you wanted to switch?

Or go the more advanced route and add a bad thing to each company too? (Like +5% reliabiliy, +5% soft attack and -5% hard attack.)
 
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They should redesign Air and material design companies.

Naval and armor are generally fine, they provide a nice array of bonuses to all designs, but planes one is bad. Because if you build planes, you pick fighter designer. Switching from it and back isn`t worth 300 PP, except after you already have fighter 1944 model.

Materiel design research companies are, again very low priority, unless they give you specific industrial bonuses, like US or USSR.

Swapping design companies for smaller cost, is also a good idea.
 
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I would love a hybrid of HOI2 and HOI3 tech systems. The flavor of tech teams, research being an ongoing investment that requires upkeep, practical/theoretical knowledge, free-form doctrines, with maybe a hint of the sand-box/fantasy that you find in HOI4 would be great IMO.
 
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Personally I would quite like the whole tech system to be completely upended and changed to be more true to life. WW2 tech was really all about stuff that barely registers in the game. Most basic weapons used in WW2 realistically had 2 generations at most. Everyone started the war with a rifle and we the only real change was Germany starting to mass produce the SG44. MG development was basically production engineering. Artillery was everyone replacing their WW1 gun models. The real tech stuff was split into to lines of activity are development of additional infantry weapons (RPG stuff), new munition designs, steadily improving aero engines, radar stuff, improved radios, radar, air navigation and so on. I feel like the game would gain a lot in terms of WW2 feel if the basic weapon systems were basically just there and tech was all about adding icing to the cake.

For example, tank design wasn't the result of developing underlying technology. It was more like specifying a tank design (ie design it in the in game tank designer) and then what 200 days for the design teams to actually turn out a design which ends up being not quite what you ask for. Spend some more design time effort on improving it or throw it away and start again. The actual tanks you see each side using where the result of reacting remarkably slowly because of design time to the equipment encountered in battle. In HOI4 I just develop the base tech and then when I see those T34s I can instantly react with a design of my own and all the delays are the time it takes the factories to adjust.

To some extent there should be similar pattern in aircraft design except the air war is so much about engine design. The Germans had lots of aircraft types (eg all the MeX09 designs) that simply weren't better than putting the better engines into the old designs.
 
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One of the things that is missing is the possibility of programming for the future the order of the technologies that you want to investigate something if it existed in HOI III
 
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mursolini

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Personally I would quite like the whole tech system to be completely upended and changed to be more true to life. WW2 tech was really all about stuff that barely registers in the game. Most basic weapons used in WW2 realistically had 2 generations at most. Everyone started the war with a rifle and we the only real change was Germany starting to mass produce the SG44. MG development was basically production engineering. Artillery was everyone replacing their WW1 gun models. The real tech stuff was split into to lines of activity are development of additional infantry weapons (RPG stuff), new munition designs, steadily improving aero engines, radar stuff, improved radios, radar, air navigation and so on. I feel like the game would gain a lot in terms of WW2 feel if the basic weapon systems were basically just there and tech was all about adding icing to the cake.

For example, tank design wasn't the result of developing underlying technology. It was more like specifying a tank design (ie design it in the in game tank designer) and then what 200 days for the design teams to actually turn out a design which ends up being not quite what you ask for. Spend some more design time effort on improving it or throw it away and start again. The actual tanks you see each side using where the result of reacting remarkably slowly because of design time to the equipment encountered in battle. In HOI4 I just develop the base tech and then when I see those T34s I can instantly react with a design of my own and all the delays are the time it takes the factories to adjust.

To some extent there should be similar pattern in aircraft design except the air war is so much about engine design. The Germans had lots of aircraft types (eg all the MeX09 designs) that simply weren't better than putting the better engines into the old designs.
Infantry armament, there was at least 4 "main" types. Bolt action, like in WW2, semi-auto like Garant, Soviet SVT38 and SVT40, German G41 and G43. Submachine guns became relatively widespread for specialist troops and backline troops. STG44 was a forth type, intermediate calibre assault rifle.

Semi auto rifle proved too hard/expensive to equip all troops for most countries, that were not USA, Soviets and Germans being decent runner ups.

Tank design was largely beholden to engine power, dimensions and suspension.
It wasn't slow reaction, it was a case of new engine with significant power boost requiring years of development and testing.

Despite Char 2C and King Tiger being same weight class, the later carried far more useful load(gun and armor) then former, being just 19 or so years apart.

Same thing with T-34/Pz4/Sherman vs Char B1. Same weight class, but later designs far more capable.

And, despite common stereotype, BF-109 went through huge redesigns and by mid-war was barely hanging in in a fight vs allied fighters. Because new planes had better engine power for same dimensions, and lower drag. Same year Mustang could outfight BF-109K4 quite convincingly, despite having twice the range and heavier armament.
 

Andrew0Red

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Machinepistols are an example of how technology "progressed" through the war.

Prewar, we use good, really expensive ones, like the Tommygun. Then, as we realise we need more than just 10k of them, we switch to mediocre, unreliable, but very cheap ones, like the Stengun. Finally, as "number of military factories" begins catching up to need, we upgrade to a reasonably reliable, resonably good one, that doesn't cost too much to make, like the gun-nuts-help-me-out-here.

Heh, I think any HoI4 player can appreciate it as the progress it actually is. :)


Submachine guns became relatively widespread for specialist troops and backline troops.
Didn't USSR switch their line infantry to use the PPSh as their main weapon? Hmm, which is probably a cost-efficient alternative to the assault rifle: In the hands of most troops, there is little to no loss of effective range, and it is simpler to manufacture full-auto than select fire.
 

Kanitatlan

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The points I was trying to make are ...
  • A lot of the new equipment being introduced wasn't technology research, it was designing equipment for a specific purposes. Often production engineering to a specific target, Sten guns were designed to be cheap but unreliable. MG42 was cost and reliability improvement for the MG34. These are not technology progress, they are about designing bits of equipment
  • On rifles, many nations went through the entire war using the rifle they started with. This choice had little to with technology as everyone (pretty much) new how to make self-loading rifles but only the USA decided they could afford them. The Soviets had a perfectly good design but didn't produce it as their main infantry weapon. These are decisions about cost and effectiveness balance
  • The point I was making about aircraft is that the technology improvement wasn't really the new aircraft designs, they were the continuous striving to improve engines. There were lots of ME this and that which were designed as replacements for the ME109 which simply weren't any better than the improved ME109. These aren't a failure of technology research, they are a failure of an individual design. Just bear in mind that the UK used Spitfires throughout the war as their air defence interceptor.
I just feel it would be nice if there was this separation between model design and underlying technology so we can have the effects of lead time of developing new equipment and failure of designs. If you had to start designing a tank a year before getting the design and then it might be a bit wonky and you have to redesign for 6 months to improve the design before even beginning to ramp up production this would give a whole new nuance to the game.

For example, I can field a force of say PzIV tanks armed with predominantly soft attack based weapons and then instantly radically redesign it with a proper cannon and slopped armour with barely a blip in production which also instantly converts.

I suppose my main point is that I think the difference between older HOI tech systems and the current one are far less important than the poor way the HOI tech system reflects the actual technology progress in war.
 
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