How many men in a British (Raj) cavalry regiment?

[billcorr]

Q: How many men in a British (Raj) cavalry regiment?

I suppose a more specific question is,

Q: What should the template be for the pre-war cavalry regiments stationed in The Raj?


Here is a list of pre-war cavalry regiments stationed in The Raj:

Spoiler: Cavalry regiments stationed in The Raj prior to WW2

Website accessed 21 Nov 2020:

https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/124/2020/09/The-Cavalry-Regiment-of-the-British-Indian-Army.pdf

 

[xtfoster]

On paper, a (post 1922) Commonwealth Cavalry Regiment would have consisted of 3 squadrons (Battalions in game) of Cavalry plus an HQ element. So the template would be 3 Battalions of Cavalry w/o support.

Each Squadron (Battalion) had a single Hotchkiss Gun (42mm Light Field Gun) and was equipped with .303 SMLE Rifles (Rifle No.1 Mk III or Basic Infantry Equipment in game). The HQ element would have had an MG troop equipped with .303 Vickers Machine Guns.

 

[billcorr]

On paper, a (post 1922) Commonwealth Cavalry Regiment would have consisted of 3 squadrons (Battalions in game) of Cavalry plus an HQ element. So the template would be 3 Battalions of Cavalry w/o support.

Thanks much.

Over the past 75 years, the term "squadron" might have changed.

Here's one definition of "squadron" (from no less a source than -- you guessed it -- wikipedia):

"In the British Army and many other Commonwealth armies, a squadron is the Royal Armoured Corps counterpart of an infantry company or artillery battery. "

Noted, the article refers to tanks and not horses. That's a clue about the different flavours of "squadrons".

Squadron (army) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[xtfoster]

Thanks much.

Over the past 75 years, the term "squadron" might have changed.

Here's one definition of "squadron" (from no less a source than -- you guessed it -- wikipedia):

"In the British Army and many other Commonwealth armies, a squadron is the Royal Armoured Corps counterpart of an infantry company or artillery battery. "

Noted, the article refers to tanks and not horses. That's a clue about the different flavours of "squadrons".

Squadron (army) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, it is basically the same in the US Army.
Prior to WWII a squadron was roughly equivalent to a Battalion (slightly smaller, but that is reflected in game IIRC), a Troop to a company.
During WWII when most cavalry was converted to either mechanized (armored cavalry) or tanks everything shifted down one level. A squadron became a company, and a troop became a platoon. EDIT: And an individual tank (and its crew) was equivalent to a squad or fire team.

Divisions were (for the most part) administrative only. The component parts of the division were attached to infantry (and later armored) units at the squadron (or lower) level.

 

[billcorr]

Hmmm...this might the cause of my confusion.

HoI4 is designed to depict a cavalry battalion (squadron) as requiring 1000 manpower.

But I get the feeling that interwar Commonwealth Squadrons might have consisted of 100 to 200 men.

I'll need to dig up some quotes or sources.

Help!

 

[Zauberelefant]

You won't get anywhere, I Tell you. Hoi4 formations work only very losely with historical TO&Es.
Cavalry Regiments were usually Battalion strength, with a squadron being the subordinate unit. In this case, your Raj regiments would be 1x CAV.

 

[billcorr]

Cavalry Regiments were usually Battalion strength, with a squadron being the subordinate unit. In this case, your Raj regiments would be 1x CAV.

A one-for-one "translation" would suggest that The Raj start the game with 21 single "battalion" cavalry regiments. These units would reflect the 21 cavalry regiments found in The Raj prior to WW2.

Website accessed 21 Nov 2020:

https://www.britishmilitaryhistory....valry-Regiment-of-the-British-Indian-Army.pdf

But in reality, these Raj cavalry regiments were plugged into greater units (e.g. infantry brigades or divisions)

That raises a topic that deserves its own thread:

How can a wargame recreate the task organizing of units that is found (almost universally?) in the world's militaries.

HoI4 does not recreate this aspect of operational warfare.

 

[billcorr]

But in reality, these Raj cavalry regiments were plugged into greater units (e.g. infantry brigades or divisions)

Here is a list of units garrisoned in Lahore in 1935 and 1936:

This is part of the official list of the combined English + Raj formations for UK forces in India in 1936. (I'm pretty sure it is for 1936...the Army list was published in 1937 and the latest "officer arrived in-country date" is in 1936.)

The Army List is found at https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/1051/9567/105195679.23.pdf

And I might have made a bit of a mistake...more to follow.

 

[billcorr]

A one-for-one "translation" would suggest that The Raj start the game with 21 single "battalion" cavalry regiments.

Single-battalion cavalry units might not be the way to go.

There were indeed cavalry brigades found within the Raj in 1935/1936.

Here is a (partial) list:

 

[billcorr]

For goodness' sake.
I'm going mad.

Here's a quote within a quote:

That settles it.

Cavalry Regiments were usually Battalion strength, with a squadron being the subordinate unit. In this case, your Raj regiments would be 1x CAV.

With the input from a contemporary source (Bugles and a Tiger, p. 315) and Zauberelefant's comments, we'll say that a Raj Cavalry regiment is represented in HoI4 thusly:

But I'm thinking that more often than not, the Raj cavalry regiments (21 of them on the eve of 1936) were part of a larger force structure.

 

[BlueAndGrey]

But I'm thinking that more often than not, the Raj cavalry regiments (21 of them on the eve of 1936) were part of a larger force structure.

Osprey publishing's book on the Indian Army says they were almagated into seven groups.

 

[Zauberelefant]

True, british forces have a Tradition to refer to the Regiment for historic reasons a lot, while the actual unit was far from Independent.

You can make the same case for other "Independent" battalion/regimental units, such as tank destroyers, heavy tanks, heavy artillery, generally corps and army (group) assets: that they should be attached In game to line units.

That's the difference between army organization as written vs actual events.
Only point hoi4 definetely has wrong is that you cannot split off your attached arnour brigade and transfer to another sector.