How many CV’s in a fleet to be most effective in fleet combat? 2,3,4 or more?

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BrianV

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I always used 4-in a CV fleet but always wondered if this was the best quantity? Also when the CV fleet is attacking an enemy fleet in an adjacent sea zone how many CAG’s to send ? A partial air wing or the whole air wing from every CV is best? Thanks for your replies!
 
Generally 4 is a good number, but this link will provide a bit more. Searching the forums will yield a treasure trove of debate about the usefulness of CV/CAG employment.
 
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Generally 4 is a good number, but this link will provide a bit more. Searching the forums will yield a treasure trove of debate about the usefulness of CV/CAG employment.
Thanks lots of good info in that link- found this one sentence helpful: “The air combat stacking penalty makes more than 2 carriers with 4 CAG's in total not very useful, but some CAG's at home to rotate damaged CAG's with rested full strength CAG's is recommended.”
 
The air combat stacking penalty

As far as I know that is lower for CAGs than for all other planes.
But I might be mistaken.

However I too never went over 4 CVs in one fleet.
Thats gives you 8 CAG groups and this should be sufficient for any encounter.
I leave them always on standard duty and let the encounter itself go automated.
But sometime a change of CAGs with reserves from a land based stack is recommended.
 
More than 4 CV's is likely counterproductive. The stacking penalty is only reduced for the 'CAG duty' mission AFAIK. That means that when you're performing Naval Strike (into the next sea zone), you should not use 8 wings, but 4 (maybe 6 if you have very good CAG commanders and the weather is nice.) The same goes for Port Strike missions etc. Another reason to use fewer wings to do things away from your fleet is to shield it from incoming Air or Naval attacks while your naval strike is ongoing. If you're hitting the enemy in Port, and the enemy fleet sorties, your CAGs may still be bombing the Port etc.

I think it also depends on what you want to do, and how much investment you want to put into your navy. If you can field two CVx4, ... fleets, you could field three CVx3,... fleets with a little extra investment, allowing you to cover more ground and to be able to cycle between more fleets. 3 CV fleets are plenty capable in most situations, except maybe in the Pacific against the USN. The AI rarely fields 3 CV fleets afaik, so you should still have the upper hand in the air. If you want that extra oomph, and you can afford multiple fleets, 4 CV's are a good plan too. Just keep lot's of reserve CAG wings on hand as CAG wings can shred themselves in Naval Battles as they will always automatically intercept incoming Naval Strikes and CAG Duty missions regardless of strength. This means that once your CAG wings get too damaged, you should rotate them out and replace them with fresh reserves to avoid losing the units entirely.

For the UK, for example, it could be beneficial (depending on circumstance) to have Carriers in the Med, in the Indian ocean, in the Pacific, and possibly in the Atlantic. The UK doesn't have the capacity to field 3 CVx4 Fleets before Lend-Lease starts flowing (unless you go all in on the navy), but 3 CVx3 Fleets is doable, as is 2 CVx4 fleets.
 
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5 wings is the "optimal" number for most missions (stacking is normally -10% effectiveness per wing, except for some ground attack missions which are -10% per wing over the first, allowing one more wing for the same penalty). One wing is the most "efficient", but will easily be defeated or even destroyed in combat. Total firepower is reduced by stacking as follows:
1 wing = 1 attack strength x 90% effectiveness (100% - 10% stacking penalty) = 0.9 effective firepower
2 wings = 2 attack strength x 80% effectiveness = 1.6 firepower
3 wings = 3 attack strength x 70% effectiveness = 2.1 firepower
4 wings = 4 attack strength x 60% effectiveness = 2.4 firepower
5 wings = 5 attack strength x 50% effectiveness = 2.5 firepower = highest firepower for the entire group
6 wings = 6 attack strength x 40% effectiveness = 2.4 firepower

.....and it goes downhill from there, until you hit:
10 wings = 10 attack strength x 10% effectiveness (penalty capped at 90%) = 1 firepower
25 wings = 25 attack strength x 10% effectiveness = 2.5 firepower
> 25 wings @ 10% effectiveness per wing = > 2.5 firepower
.....so unless you run more than 25 wings, 5 is the optimal figure.

The odd exception is CAG Duty, which only has half the stacking penalty (-5%), so 10 wings would be the maximum firepower figure, but 8-12 would all be relatively similar in firepower, within a few percent.

In air-to-air combat, it's often better to have 6 wings than 5, because even though the offensive firepower is marginally lower, the increased number of planes will allow them to distribute damage and take less hits per plane, allowing for faster repairs if you have enough airfield or carrier capacity to handle all of them. That means the optimal numbers are 8-12 CAG wings on CAG Duty, and 4-6 for other missions. At 2 wings per carrier, that's 4-6 CVs per fleet for defensive operations, and sending no more than half of the wings for other missions.

There was a noteworthy incident in my game last night involving CAGs: I had one CAG based on a CVL attached to a Surface Action Group, and the fleet got into combat against a couple of opposing BBs, with land-based air assisting the enemy fleet. My CAG lost all of its ORG, but continued to fly again and again the next hour as it regained a shred of ORG. With the enemy planes in the sea zone, I couldn't rebase my CAG to land because it was immediately engaged, defeated, and returned to its carrier instead of heading for a land base. I could not prevent it from flying because "CAG Duty" is automatically applied when a CAG is landed on a carrier, and it will then automatically take off to defend the sea zone once again no matter what you do. I couldn't bring in another wing to replace it until it was rebased, and there was no room on the CVL for a second wing to reinforce it. There was nothing I could do to save the CAG, which eventually ran out of Strength and was eliminated. Automatic systems like that are fine when they're optional, but when there is no manual alternative or override when the actions of the automatic function are just plain stupid under the circumstances, I find it frustrating.
 
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5 wings is the "optimal" number for most missions (stacking is normally -10% effectiveness per wing, except for some ground attack missions which are -10% per wing over the first, allowing one more wing for the same penalty). One wing is the most "efficient", but will easily be defeated or even destroyed in combat. Total firepower is reduced by stacking as follows:
1 wing = 1 attack strength x 90% effectiveness (100% - 10% stacking penalty) = 0.9 effective firepower
2 wings = 2 attack strength x 80% effectiveness = 1.6 firepower
3 wings = 3 attack strength x 70% effectiveness = 2.1 firepower
4 wings = 4 attack strength x 60% effectiveness = 2.4 firepower
5 wings = 5 attack strength x 50% effectiveness = 2.5 firepower = highest firepower for the entire group
6 wings = 6 attack strength x 40% effectiveness = 2.4 firepower

.....and it goes downhill from there, until you hit:
10 wings = 10 attack strength x 10% effectiveness (penalty capped at 90%) = 1 firepower
25 wings = 25 attack strength x 10% effectiveness = 2.5 firepower
> 25 wings @ 10% effectiveness per wing = > 2.5 firepower
.....so unless you run more than 25 wings, 5 is the optimal figure.

The odd exception is CAG Duty, which only has half the stacking penalty (-5%), so 10 wings would be the maximum firepower figure, but 8-12 would all be relatively similar in firepower, within a few percent.

In air-to-air combat, it's often better to have 6 wings than 5, because even though the offensive firepower is marginally lower, the increased number of planes will allow them to distribute damage and take less hits per plane, allowing for faster repairs if you have enough airfield or carrier capacity to handle all of them. That means the optimal numbers are 8-12 CAG wings on CAG Duty, and 4-6 for other missions. At 2 wings per carrier, that's 4-6 CVs per fleet for defensive operations, and sending no more than half of the wings for other missions.

There was a noteworthy incident in my game last night involving CAGs: I had one CAG based on a CVL attached to a Surface Action Group, and the fleet got into combat against a couple of opposing BBs, with land-based air assisting the enemy fleet. My CAG lost all of its ORG, but continued to fly again and again the next hour as it regained a shred of ORG. With the enemy planes in the sea zone, I couldn't rebase my CAG to land because it was immediately engaged, defeated, and returned to its carrier instead of heading for a land base. I could not prevent it from flying because "CAG Duty" is automatically applied when a CAG is landed on a carrier, and it will then automatically take off to defend the sea zone once again no matter what you do. I couldn't bring in another wing to replace it until it was rebased, and there was no room on the CVL for a second wing to reinforce it. There was nothing I could do to save the CAG, which eventually ran out of Strength and was eliminated. Automatic systems like that are fine when they're optional, but when there is no manual alternative or override when the actions of the automatic function are just plain stupid under the circumstances, I find it frustrating.
Thanks for your input, it’s nice to see you’re still active in this board. What’s your typical CV fleet make-up? Also for some reason my CV’s never gain experience no matter what kind of battle it fights. My CAG leaders gain exp and the CV commander gains but never the actual CV itself am I missing something? I remember one battle the Brits had one CVL in a fleet and it tore my Bismarck and the escort to shreds. I guess in some battles less is more Just a side question do you play HOIIV? I could never get used to the interface and sprites. HOI3 still the best IMHO
 
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The CV or CVL generally doesn't gain experience, but the CAGs do. It's a rare thing (hopefully) to have your CV end up in gun range in order to gain combat experience.

In a couple of previous campaigns, I ran 2 CVs to a fleet in the mid-war (and 2 CVLs supporting a SAG), and expanded that to 4 CVs by late war....but it's rare that the campaign lasts that long, or that I'm running a country that's in any position to build CVs. Hard to build a CV fleet when you have to research practically everything naval from scratch, or don't even start out with a port.

I watched a couple of HOI4 videos, read the forum posts, and watched a few minutes while someone else played.....there are a few definite improvements over HOI3, but overall it's not what I want in a WWII game. As the saying goes, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics, and HOI4 simplifies logistics to the point of stupidity, where you can run a large army on the opposite side of a desert, major mountain chain, or ocean, as long as the infrastructure on the other side is sufficient. WWII wasn't like the Middle Ages, where you could send out the cavalry to forage supplies from the local villages. Besides, I can't buy the game until it's available from some source other than Steam.
 
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The CV or CVL generally doesn't gain experience, but the CAGs do. It's a rare thing (hopefully) to have your CV end up in gun range in order to gain combat experience.

In a couple of previous campaigns, I ran 2 CVs to a fleet in the mid-war (and 2 CVLs supporting a SAG), and expanded that to 4 CVs by late war....but it's rare that the campaign lasts that long, or that I'm running a country that's in any position to build CVs. Hard to build a CV fleet when you have to research practically everything naval from scratch, or don't even start out with a port.

I watched a couple of HOI4 videos, read the forum posts, and watched a few minutes while someone else played.....there are a few definite improvements over HOI3, but overall it's not what I want in a WWII game. As the saying goes, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics, and HOI4 simplifies logistics to the point of stupidity, where you can run a large army on the opposite side of a desert, major mountain chain, or ocean, as long as the infrastructure on the other side is sufficient. WWII wasn't like the Middle Ages, where you could send out the cavalry to forage supplies from the local villages. Besides, I can't buy the game until it's available from some source other than Steam.
Like you I gave up on HOI4 a long time ago because it seems to be more of a Risk/fantasy game than a real WWII simulation. Too bad.
 
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