How many beach to defend ?

[Alex_brunius]

The issue is less related to D-Day sized invasions where we can assume that gaining the beachhead is almost guaranteed, but Dieppe sized raids in which the beach garrison itself is able to repel a much larger force without the need of mobile reserves. (Dieppe beach was successfully defended by 150 soldiers!)

"The German 571st Infantry Regiment was understrength, with a total of 1,500 men"

We can assume that this in HoI3 terms will mean a infantry brigade at 50% strenght. There you have your beach defense.

Dieppe is also only a small town, a HoI3 province will cover some 30x30km at least. In Earlier threads people have proved that not even the largest cities require more than one province. So Its safe to assume that other parts of the German division that among its assignments had dieppe would have other regiments not further then 20km away or in the same province. Some might be on other beaches, or back on anti partisan duty in other small towns. One regiment might even have been reserves.

Id like to reinforce that beach defense is not about putting 150 men on the beach where they will attack, because you can never know where that is. Its about putting 150men on ALL beaches within a province where they can possibly attack. And to be safe some men on beaches you don't think they can attack too, and some men back incase they try to flank you with paratroopers and some men in reserve for counterattacks if they do manage to land.

To do all this in an area of at least 30x30km you WILL need a division.

 

[unmerged(55919)]

One more thing on beach defense that I hope they improve is the vulnerability of landing transports. In HoI2 I can have lots of up-to-date TAC/CAS on Naval Attack missions and transports still can do an amphibious assault and I do not see them many of the times. I have no problems with limited spotting in general but when the transports hit the coast I know exactly where they are and, if they do not have air cover, they should be extremely vulnerable.

Of course, most HoI2 AI amphibious assaults are suicidal anyways but hopefully the AI in HoI3 will be much improved; landings should be well prepared with large follow-on forces ready to re-inforce the beachheads immedaitely or they should not be attempted.

 

[Mierin]

"The German 571st Infantry Regiment was understrength, with a total of 1,500 men"

We can assume that this in HoI3 terms will mean a infantry brigade at 50% strenght. There you have your beach defense.

Dieppe is also only a small town, a HoI3 province will cover some 30x30km at least. In Earlier threads people have proved that not even the largest cities require more than one province. So Its safe to assume that other parts of the German division that among its assignments had dieppe would have other regiments not further then 20km away or in the same province. Some might be on other beaches, or back on anti partisan duty in other small towns. One regiment might even have been reserves.

Id like to reinforce that beach defense is not about putting 150 men on the beach where they will attack, because you can never know where that is. Its about putting 150men on ALL beaches within a province where they can possibly attack. And to be safe some men on beaches you don't think they can attack too, and some men back incase they try to flank you with paratroopers and some men in reserve for counterattacks if they do manage to land.

To do all this in an area of at least 30x30km you WILL need a division.

Right, an understrength regiment of 1500 soldiers over around a 15-20km stretch of coast. (The 150 men figure I mentioned was obviously the Garrison at the main point of invasion). German infantry divisions ranged from about 12,500 (late war 6btn)-18,000 (9btn) soldiers with an average around 15,000. To extend the logic then, the manpower needed for a single understrength (6btn) division should be able to garrison something in the range of 100km-120km of beach. Recall also that, aside from the large ports, Dieppe is on a part of the Atlantic wall where invasion is more likely and forces will be more concentrated then in, for example, Norway.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Right, an understrength regiment of 1500 soldiers over around a 15-20km stretch of coast. (The 150 men figure I mentioned was obviously the Garrison at the main point of invasion). German infantry divisions ranged from about 12,500 (late war 6btn)-18,000 (9btn) soldiers with an average around 15,000. To extend the logic then, the manpower needed for a single understrength (6btn) division should be able to garrison something in the range of 100km-120km of beach. Recall also that, aside from the large ports, Dieppe is on a part of the Atlantic wall where invasion is more likely and forces will be more concentrated then in, for example, Norway.

If you think that 150 soldiers defeated the allied force of 6000 alone I seriously think you need to read alot more about dieppe. Because thats what they would have been forced to do if the 1500 defending dieppe were spread out over 20km.

 

[Enewald]

Btw, can't you still create divisions which have only one regiment?
They don't need to included 4-5 regiments, right?

 

[zeekater]

Btw, can't you still create divisions which have only one regiment?
They don't need to included 4-5 regiments, right?

The devs have said that there is a minimum strength a division needs to have. It hasn't been said how much exactly, but it was in response to a similar question about having 1 brigade divisions...

 

[Mierin]

If you think that 150 soldiers defeated the allied force of 6000 alone I seriously think you need to read alot more about dieppe. Because thats what they would have been forced to do if the 1500 defending dieppe were spread out over 20km.

I would do a closer look:

"They were thinly deployed along the beaches of Dieppe and the neighboring towns, covering all the likely landing places. In respect of machine guns, mortars and artillery it was adequately protected with a concentration on the main approach, (particularly in the myriad of cliff caves), and with a reserve at the rear. They were stationed not only in the towns themselves, but also between the towns in open areas and highlands that overlooked the beaches. A garrison of only 150 men, for example, defended the beaches at Dieppe, while a smaller garrison of 50 men defended the beaches at Puys. Lacking in terms of infantry capacity, the Germans would focus on setting up extensive defensive perimeters throughout the area. Elements of the 571st defended the radar station near Pourville and the battery over the Scie at Varengeville."

See the underlined part. If you check out the specific locations its easy to see just how thinly spread the forces were. For example, Varengeville is 8 km west of Dieppe and Puys is about 6km east and the next closest forces were about 12km east at Berneval.

Check the history again: For example, the first unit of 500 men to land at Puys was annihilated by a garrison of 60 men who didnt even feel the need to call for reinforcement. I am sure that at the main thrust, the reserve element was called in to assist the 150 guys at Dieppe, but that is factored into the 1500 soldiers defending the 15-20km stretch of land.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I would do a closer look:

"They were thinly deployed along the beaches of Dieppe and the neighboring towns, covering all the likely landing places. In respect of machine guns, mortars and artillery it was adequately protected with a concentration on the main approach, (particularly in the myriad of cliff caves), and with a reserve at the rear. They were stationed not only in the towns themselves, but also between the towns in open areas and highlands that overlooked the beaches. A garrison of only 150 men, for example, defended the beaches at Dieppe, while a smaller garrison of 50 men defended the beaches at Puys. Lacking in terms of infantry capacity, the Germans would focus on setting up extensive defensive perimeters throughout the area. Elements of the 571st defended the radar station near Pourville and the battery over the Scie at Varengeville."

See the underlined part. If you check out the specific locations its easy to see just how thinly spread the forces were. For example, Varengeville is 8 km west of Dieppe and Puys is about 6km east and the next closest forces were about 12km east at Berneval.

Check the history again: For example, the first unit of 500 men to land at Puys was annihilated by a garrison of 60 men who didnt even feel the need to call for reinforcement. I am sure that at the main thrust, the reserve element was called in to assist the 150 guys at Dieppe, but that is factored into the 1500 soldiers defending the 15-20km stretch of land.

A province in HoI3 is large enough that you would need an entire division to defend that against any serious invasion attempts. The raid at Dieppe was not serious attempt at making an invasion, it was merely a bad probing attack with lacking in both planning and strategic resources.

I suppose that you basically have read what Wikipedia says about the raid. It is true that 1500 soldiers defended the area. But how big was the area?
Not very large when you compare the vastness of the French coastline. In 1942, the coastline was not defended very well either, but the threat was basically non existent at that time.

In HoI3 terms you could have a two brigade militia division defending (including a couple of fort levels) an era and you would get about the same effect. Attack the province with weak naval and air support with half a division and I promise you it will not succeed either.

In 1944, the northern French coast was defended with about 30 German division, most of them under strengthed... including the closest reserve troops an excluding the proper reserve divisions such as armoured and mechanized divisions stationed further away from the coastline. This was not enough the make 7 (6 infantry and 1 armoured) division to successfully invade in Normandy.

 

[Mierin]

A province in HoI3 is large enough that you would need an entire division to defend that against any serious invasion attempts. The raid at Dieppe was not serious attempt at making an invasion, it was merely a bad probing attack with lacking in both planning and strategic resources.

I suppose that you basically have read what Wikipedia says about the raid. It is true that 1500 soldiers defended the area. But how big was the area?
Not very large when you compare the vastness of the French coastline. In 1942, the coastline was not defended very well either, but the threat was basically non existent at that time.

In HoI3 terms you could have a two brigade militia division defending (including a couple of fort levels) an era and you would get about the same effect. Attack the province with weak naval and air support with half a division and I promise you it will not succeed either.

In 1944, the northern French coast was defended with about 30 German division, most of them under strengthed... including the closest reserve troops an excluding the proper reserve divisions such as armoured and mechanized divisions stationed further away from the coastline. This was not enough the make 7 (6 infantry and 1 armoured) division to successfully invade in Normandy.

The Wikipedia article is actually a rote copy of other sources so in this case its a little bit more trustworthy then some of their other articles. I actually have done some more in-depth research into it. There are a few maps out there showing the pre-battle emplacements to get an idea of how spread out the forces were. Anyway, as I said earlier, I am wondering how much of a force will be needed to properly defend the beaches against a single division attack that the AI is so enamored with rather then an invasion in force. IE if I want enough defense to prevent the enemy from dropping a division once a week on my shores and then retreating when threatened as it loves to do.

 

[Alex_brunius]

IE if I want enough defense to prevent the enemy from dropping a division once a week on my shores and then retreating when threatened as it loves to do.

IMO This should be solved by other things, such as:

# Signal intel giving you ahead warning so you (or the AI) can vector bombers, fighters or ships to sink the transports.

# Allowing people to build single brigade divisions. Right now it looks like the minimum division will consist of one 3000str brigade and one 1000str support brigade. Might not be as low as 1500 total, but it should be able to reppel a full division size attack if dug in and well equipped, unlike the dieppe garrision that would probably face trouble if attacked by a 15'000 force thats better prepared and supported.

# An AI that can identify beachthreats, position mobile reserves correctly and respond automatically to landings. And all this without any player interaction unless you want it yourself.

 

[Mierin]

IMO This should be solved by other things, such as:

# Signal intel giving you ahead warning so you (or the AI) can vector bombers, fighters or ships to sink the transports.

# Allowing people to build single brigade divisions. Right now it looks like the minimum division will consist of one 3000str brigade and one 1000str support brigade. Might not be as low as 1500 total, but it should be able to reppel a full division size attack if dug in and well equipped, unlike the dieppe garrision that would probably face trouble if attacked by a 15'000 force thats better prepared and supported.

# An AI that can identify beachthreats, position mobile reserves correctly and respond automatically to landings. And all this without any player interaction unless you want it yourself.

Indeed, these suggestions wouldn't be bad. I hope that HoI3 gives you a warning when the actual invasion begins even if there are no meaningful defenses. IE we hope that the commissar, mayor, or local policeman etc. would send a message when he noticed landing craft disembarking troops (at least during daytime). As it is, someone can spend a week landing a panzer division supported by a Maus heavy armor brigade in the middle of the French Riviera and the French player might not know about it until the operation is completed. Perhaps make it a function of province 'manpower' to account for isolated regions.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Yes, this part did confuse me in HoI2. You can always see land divisions Except for when they are in transports or disembarking from them!?

That makes no sense, Land divisions (+ transports) should be the most visable and vunerable when disembarking on a hostile shore. Basically sitting ducks for alla hostile air and naval units in the vicinity that can respond to the threat. Able to go neither forward nor backwards, and not able to retreat either without drawn out efforts (lasting for days at worst) to get back onto the ships.

But in HoI2 you can't even target divisions that are disembarking... they are immune and invisible :S