How many beach to defend ?

[unmerged(28377)]

Let's say French coast, 3 x time more province versus HOI2, means how many more beach to defend ?

As I quote "Note the division is still the smallest tactical unit" how the axis player will defend Forteress Europa if the number of allied units concentrated for a landing is only limited by the number of available transport ? (usually 40)

thats' my concern.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The number of landing divisions will probably be limited by the frontage allowed to occupy each beach, I expect this to be a very small value.

I also doubt there will be 3 x as many provinces on any set distance. That would mean we have 9 x as many provinces in any given area, pretty unlikely. 2 x Is a more reasonable value.

 

[unmerged(28377)]

I you look at Japan coast (alpha's screenshot) , looks like 3x ...

 

[unmerged(28377)]

"http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9306700"

 

[Alex_brunius]

Im thinking Japan is a special case. They also said they wanted to improve the number of provinces in south east asia especially.

Its also a question of coastline, France have a much more straight coastline that can be done without so many provinces on the coast.

 

[unmerged(131221)]

1. Not all coastal provinces are beaches.
2. Frontage determines nr of divisions per combat.
3. Probably lower frontage during landings.
4. Ports are neccessary to supply troops after landings - the amount of supplies flow is determined by the size of the port.

IRL the beaches werent spammed by tons of coastal defend troops and it will be also this way here. I assume:
- 1 Division per beach max. Not all beaches need to be defended - it depends on place and how close are possible reinforcements and ports - for arrival of supply which is going to be now vital. IMO some far away beaches arent gonna be attacked if it will not have any impact on general situation.
- Mobile Reserves: Tank + Motorised + Mechanized units in some distance behind the beaches ready to jump into action when and where landing starts.

Also landings will be much more dangerous and have more significant impact. So:
1. Landing zones need to be placed neer Ports for supply, and Airfields for Airforce units working as Close Air Support.
2. Attacks will be supported by partisant actions and intense air strikes in and behind landing zones. Supply lines (infrastructure), forts and units will be constantly bombed.

A good AI should be able to do that. But also should be able to defend - Reserves used properly and on time can drive landing troops to the see.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I would say that most regular beaches would be defended by a single division, perhaps even by militia, depending on your industrial capacity. These beach provinces will also be reinforced by a couple of coastal fort levels for extra security.
You put about two division for every minor port together with relatively good coastal forts and a small amount of regular forts to defend against enemy units who break through any beach landings.
You build up major ports provinces with at least two to three division and strong coastal and land fortifications.
In addition you have armored and motorized/mechanized infantry as mobile reserve along the coastlines.

If you deny the enemy your ports, they will not be able to sustain any breach at your beaches. A good AI will probably understand this and only bother when they can do proper landings when and if they have air superiority. Anything less would be suicide.

 

[unmerged(131221)]

If the closest ports can be defended then the invasion is over. Thats all.
Just put your best slow (read - foot) units there with militias on less and garrisons more significant beaches. Amount of Mobile Reserves doesnt have to be high or scattered all over the map. They should be placed in a Region from which you can react in all directions. Nothing complicated. Just starve them
EDIT:
It would be also nice if some kind of Mulberry ports were in, with limited/minimal amount of supply flow which would allow to defend. All major offensive operations shouldnt be possible till capturing a port.

 

[Mierin]

I wonder how they are going to balance it out so that Japan, Italy, and the UK dont end up using 98% of their forces in beach defense of their huge coastlines. Even with only a single division per province, if the number of beaches is similarly multiplied, those nations are going to have a rough time maintaining defenses and having forces left over for offenses.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

As Airborne said above, you will not need to protect every province since every province will surely not be a beach province. Most provinces will not contain any ports so you will only need minimal defenses there. Perhaps a garrison division with two garrison brigades. You place bigger forces the more important ports that you have.

UK will hardly need a lot of garrisons since they have the Royal Navy. The Japanese will have the Imperial Fleet and air force, so any landings in Japan will be a real major undertaking and defending every province will not be necessary other than by garrisons there as well.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Also remember province focused airstrikes, both on the seazone outside the beach that can bring in reinforcements, as well as into the beachzone itself will be much more effective.

The new naval system might not allow transports to retreat into the beach after 4hours. If even at all (Vicky had a good system where ships could only retreat back to where they came from helping out naval blockades).

We can deploy radar and SIGINT stations that can detect invasion forces moving towards your shores several days ahead giving your navy time to head out and face them.

This combined with what others have said (logistics constraints, mobile reserves) makes me certain an amfibious assault will be a fairly complicated and major undertaking.

 

[daemonofdecay]

UK will hardly need a lot of garrisons since they have the Royal Navy.

But of course this all really depends on how the AI will use it. Conducting Operation Sealion as Germany was much too easy in HoI2.

But I am confident that Paradox will make sure that the UK will use its navy properly without making the ships to vulnerable or by forcing them to patrol constantly and thus draining the UKs oil reserves.

But there also needs to be a way for the AI to properly register the thread of transports. For instance in HoI2 it was easy to get the RN tied up in a huge brawl with German U-Boats while your transports landed unopposed. There needs to be a way for the AI to register the larger threat and immedietly break of such a battle to try and intercept the transports.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

But of course this all really depends on how the AI will use it. Conducting Operation Sealion as Germany was much too easy in HoI2.

But I am confident that Paradox will make sure that the UK will use its navy properly without making the ships to vulnerable or by forcing them to patrol constantly and thus draining the UKs oil reserves.

But there also needs to be a way for the AI to properly register the thread of transports. For instance in HoI2 it was easy to get the RN tied up in a huge brawl with German U-Boats while your transports landed unopposed. There needs to be a way for the AI to register the larger threat and immedietly break of such a battle to try and intercept the transports.

It's true that AI is as important as anything else. But I have to presume the AI can handle proper defense and offense. If not it doesn't matter anyway. As a player I also feel that it is necessary to play by some house rules sometimes and NOT exploit any AI weaknesses that you know about.
In HoI2 I usually could destroy the French army by luring them out from the Maginot line in southern Germany in 1939. They would repeat this attacks until I had more or less destroyed 2/3 of their army. If I garrisoned the area properly they would never attack and I usually did that after this because it would ruin the game otherwise.

 

[Markusw7]

an area in HOI2 that had 3 beach provinces could very well still have only 3 beach provinces in it. 3 times the amount of provinces doesn't mean 3 times the amount of beaches.

 

[unmerged(52507)]

an area in HOI2 that had 3 beach provinces could very well still have only 3 beach provinces in it. 3 times the amount of provinces doesn't mean 3 times the amount of beaches.

Yes, I agree. I think the province numbers could triple whilst the beach numbers remain the same. Normandy had to have a beach in HOI2, but if there are a few provinces for Normandy in HOI3 each doesn't need a beach.

 

[Mierin]

an area in HOI2 that had 3 beach provinces could very well still have only 3 beach provinces in it. 3 times the amount of provinces doesn't mean 3 times the amount of beaches.

I certainly hope so! The Levantine/Sinai coast requires like 10 divisions to defend the beaches as it is in HoI2 (as the entire coastline can be assaulted by sea). Even with 2Bde single division garrison it would take a ridiculous amount of manpower to hold the area if the coast remained fully open to attack yet tripled in count hehe.

Perhaps defending troops should be able to defend adjacent province beachheads to simulate the division spreading its assets along the coast?

 

[unmerged(34050)]

But I am confident that Paradox will make sure that the UK will use its navy properly without making the ships to vulnerable or by forcing them to patrol constantly and thus draining the UKs oil reserves.

Johan described in the naval update the idea that will be able to have a small force (say 2 cruisers) patrol a sea area, and you can set it so when the patrol makes contact your main battle fleet sails. This will eliminate having the entire Home fleet sailing the Faroes Gap for months on end.

 

[Porkman]

I certainly hope so! The Levantine/Sinai coast requires like 10 divisions to defend the beaches as it is in HoI2 (as the entire coastline can be assaulted by sea). Even with 2Bde single division garrison it would take a ridiculous amount of manpower to hold the area if the coast remained fully open to attack yet tripled in count hehe.

Perhaps defending troops should be able to defend adjacent province beachheads to simulate the division spreading its assets along the coast?

The world isn't fair though. The Levantine provinces shouldn't only have three beach provinces to make it easy for the British player but because it only has three beach provinces.

Defending a coastline is manpower intensive and should require the creation of a mobile reserve and most nations won't be able to put a division on every beach in the same way that most nations didn't do that historically.

What will keep the game from having really easy ampib ops is that landings need to capture ports, so that the playercan concentrate defenses there and then react.

I love my china games, but it was ridiculous that it only took 36 divisions to make a 3000 mile coastline impenetrable.

Garrisoning every beach is prohibitively expensive as is launching an amphibious assault.

The greatest protection for the Levant is not 17 British divisions chilling in Palestine, but that there is no way for the Italians to supply any such offensive in the face of British naval superiority.

It was a basic fact that there were too many beaches and not enough troops to defend them. Artificially limiting the number of beaches because it might force the player to think a little bit more creatively about beach defense than the usual Bulgarian vacation in France is lazy and ahistorical.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

The world isn't fair though. The Levantine provinces shouldn't only have three beach provinces to make it easy for the British player but because it only has three beach provinces.

Defending a coastline is manpower intensive and should require the creation of a mobile reserve and most nations won't be able to put a division on every beach in the same way that most nations didn't do that historically.

What will keep the game from having really easy ampib ops is that landings need to capture ports, so that the playercan concentrate defenses there and then react.

I love my china games, but it was ridiculous that it only took 36 divisions to make a 3000 mile coastline impenetrable.

Garrisoning every beach is prohibitively expensive as is launching an amphibious assault.

The greatest protection for the Levant is not 17 British divisions chilling in Palestine, but that there is no way for the Italians to supply any such offensive in the face of British naval superiority.

It was a basic fact that there were too many beaches and not enough troops to defend them. Artificially limiting the number of beaches because it might force the player to think a little bit more creatively about beach defense than the usual Bulgarian vacation in France is lazy and ahistorical.

I couldn't agree more...

 

[unmerged(12217)]

I would be interested in knowing if fortification levels in a region/province affect frontage values.
It seems to me that there should be a relationship. Statically emplaced troops use up space differently than do troops in a mobile configuration. Historically, heavy fortifications generally allowed a smaller force to defend more frontage, assuming that the fortifications were intelligently designed to be interlocking and taking maximum advantage of terrain cover, etc.
So, in my thinking, if you pay the IC to upgrade fortifications in a province or region, your troops' frontages should increase - perhaps double. This would also limit the number of units that could effectively take advantage of the fortifications in an area. (Here I mean take advantage of the fortification value of the area; I'm not referring to the digging-in value a unit gets for being in one place for a while.)