How long should recovery of levies take?

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Antediluvian Monster

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Can we please not have dated pitchfork peasant memes in this game. "Levy" should represent upper class peasantry who owned their own arms and armour and have some degree of military training. At their best they should be capable of facerolling the flower of chivalry.
 

Wolfshield156

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Can we please not have dated pitchfork peasant memes in this game. "Levy" should represent upper class peasantry who owned their own arms and armour and have some degree of military training. At their best they should be capable of facerolling the flower of chivalry.
Than why are the levy junk infantry in game... I think what want you mentioned are represented by man at arms.
 

Wolfshield156

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If what I described falls under men-at-arms then the levy they want to represent by in-game levy did not really exist for most part.
Do I did a some quick research to be sure... Yeah while vary by culture, the lowest rung of levy in England before the 100 years war... Had to afford a spear, shield, and helm. Only truly impoverished were excempt from levy conscription.

The word tenant farmer came up a bit. These weren't weathly farmers, just merely not impoverish farmer. And this was England in the late middle ages, in other areas or 867 start date the dirty peasant with a spear would've been quite an apt comparison to what levy was made out of.

Norse levies were expected to have a shield, spear, maybe a side arm, helm, and gambeson armor. This actually made better than average levy troops at the time. they weren't the best equipped by any means, just better equipped than most.
 

Wolfshield156

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I should also state that I know levies where quite effective if used right and where oftentimes well equipped, but they weren't the semi professional soldier that made them out to be, but constripts given enough training to hold a line and equipment really relied on them their own wealth and majority of people in the middle ages where just trying to make to next harvest for the most part.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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Do I did a some quick research to be sure... Yeah while vary by culture, the lowest rung of levy in England before the 100 years war... Had to afford a spear, shield, and helm. Only truly impoverished were excempt from levy conscription.

The word tenant farmer came up a bit. These weren't weathly farmers, just merely not impoverish farmer. And this was England in the late middle ages, in other areas or 867 start date the dirty peasant with a spear would've been quite an apt comparison to what levy was made out of.

Norse levies were expected to have a shield, spear, maybe a side arm, helm, and gambeson armor. This actually made better than average levy troops at the time. they weren't the best equipped by any means, just better equipped than most.

Specifically, it's serfs that the Assize of Arms is exempting, as was already touched upon earlier in the thread. Free men (a minority of the peasantry by the time of this law, so upper class peasant is perfectly applicable) were expected to arm themselves, just like they were in the days of the Anglo-Saxon fyrd.
 

Wolfshield156

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Specifically, it's serfs that the Assize of Arms is exempting, as was already touched upon earlier in the thread. Free men (a minority of the peasantry by the time of this law, so upper class peasant is perfectly applicable) were expected to arm themselves, just like they were in the days of the Anglo-Saxon fyrd.
In England, yes freeman where the norm for troops. England incredibly large number of them in this era. But that still doesn't change the fact that your of weathly farmer as levy is wrong as even England late middle only required you be able afford a weapon, shield, and helm to be open for recruitment. And England had reputation of Fielding better infantry than France during 100 years war.

England population in 1300 AD peak at 3 million. English population by domesday book was 12% landowner/Freeman, 40% tenant farmer (who where also up for recruitment) and craftsman, 32% serfs, 10% slaves, and remaining 6% being mobility and clergy. Assuming no major demographic change, that puts 26% percent population as recruitable ( assuming they counted women and we remove them from the pool) not counting nobility and their standing forces of castle guards and mercenaries. Which comes up to a staggering 780,000 levable troops.




The holy Roman empire had population of 5 million, and even I am sure a bit less caring about where got their troops, let give a recruitment pool that is 15 % population ( probably far less than actually had, but let's go with this)

That gives them 750,000 recruitable population. Once again not counting nobility and their troops.

France in 1200 AD if only have recruitment of 5 percent population could also had pool of 750,000 troops, and they where certainly less caring where their basic infantry than England was.

Seen why it taking decades to recover from their loss is kinda bogus in my eyes.
 
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Antediluvian Monster

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England population in 1300 AD peak at 3 million. English population by domesday book was 12% landowner/Freeman, 40% tenant farmer (who where also up for recruitment) and craftsman, 32% serfs, 10% slaves, and remaining 6% being mobility and clergy. Assuming no major demographic change, that puts 26% percent population as recruitable ( assuming they counted women and we remove them from the pool) not counting nobility and their standing forces of castle guards and mercenaries. Which comes up to a staggering 780,000 levable troops.

While "tenant farmers" (by which you seem to mean villeins) might have been up for recruitment as their Lord's retainers, villeins were legally unfree and hence not subject to the levy.
 

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I don't really care if levy replenishment rates are unrealistic. I want a realistic feel of the game. This one thing where game balance is more important and if things are fudged a bit it doesn't change the overall atmosphere

I think what want you mentioned are represented by man at arms.
Men-at-arms were not peasants. Originally any armored cavalryman may be called a knight (knight comes from the German "Knecht", which means "serf" in the sense that they gave military service to their lord). Then knights became a social class of their own and a distinction was made between the noble knights and their non-noble soldiers. Sometimes men-at-arms is used collectively for knights and their paid soldiers. Sometimes it's used only for the non-knights. This could vary with time and location (not every realm functioned like England). But they fought pretty much identically. Their equipment was a lot more expensive than what a peasant would be able to afford and became even more expensive with time. So most them came from more well off social classes between the peasants and nobility.
 
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Chlodio

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England population in 1300 AD peak at 3 million. English population by domesday book was 12% landowner/Freeman, 40% tenant farmer (who where also up for recruitment) and craftsman, 32% serfs, 10% slaves, and remaining 6% being mobility and clergy. Assuming no major demographic change, that puts 26% percent population as recruitable ( assuming they counted women and we remove them from the pool) not counting nobility and their standing forces of castle guards and mercenaries. Which comes up to a staggering 780,000 levable troops.
Just a terrible assumption. The idea of using the 11th-century survey for 14th estimates is quite daft, any historian would tell you that no century is the same, and that's unquestionably the case here. For the starters, there were no slaves in England, slavery had been greatly in the decline since the Norman takeover.

The other thing is this "26% percent population as recruitable", that percentage recruitable-percentage belongs to WW2. Even if 26% of the population are male tenants, it doesn't mean they are recruitable, there is no recruiting, these are not 20th-century conscriptions. Some tenants held their land via scutage, some via socage, some by frankalmoin, but the only people who had to serve in military capacity held their land via serjeanty. So, the 26% percentage is already broken. Now, again, these are not 20th-century constriction, the obligation is tied to individual families, thus each family would have to provide a soldier (the equipment being defined by the value of their chattel). So, if we assume that only 25% of the 26% hold their land via serjeanty, and that every family has three male members, we get 26%/4/3= 2.1%. This is a fair number, indeed the largest army England ever saw during the 14th century was that of Edward I who briefly mustered 30,000 men.

If we talk about emergency calls such as arrière-ban and heerbann, that technically included "all able-bodied men", well… These are not practical; Ian Heath notes that people called by arrière-ban didn't generally serve further than half a march walk from their home.

Instead of "quick research" and ludicrous assumptions, I'd recommend reading a book, e.g Feudal Armies 1066–1300 by aforementioned Ian Heath.
 

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The largest battle involving Englishmen during the medieval period was Towton, one of the battles of the Wars of the Roses. A conservative estimate would be about 40,000 men, with some figures putting it at nearer 60,000. If you take the smaller figure, that's about 1% of the population of England fighting in a single battle at a single location.

~700,000 men is simply not feasible in any sense. Even if the numbers were there, they simply couldn't be paid and fed.
 

Wolfshield156

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The largest battle involving Englishmen during the medieval period was Towton, one of the battles of the Wars of the Roses. A conservative estimate would be about 40,000 men, with some figures putting it at nearer 60,000. If you take the smaller figure, that's about 1% of the population of England fighting in a single battle at a single location.

~700,000 men is simply not feasible in any sense. Even if the numbers were there, they simply couldn't be paid and fed.
I
Just a terrible assumption. The idea of using the 11th-century survey for 14th estimates is quite daft, any historian would tell you that no century is the same, and that's unquestionably the case here. For the starters, there were no slaves in England, slavery had been greatly in the decline since the Norman takeover.

The other thing is this "26% percent population as recruitable", that percentage recruitable-percentage belongs to WW2. Even if 26% of the population are male tenants, it doesn't mean they are recruitable, there is no recruiting, these are not 20th-century conscriptions. Some tenants held their land via scutage, some via socage, some by frankalmoin, but the only people who had to serve in military capacity held their land via serjeanty. So, the 26% percentage is already broken. Now, again, these are not 20th-century constriction, the obligation is tied to individual families, thus each family would have to provide a soldier (the equipment being defined by the value of their chattel). So, if we assume that only 25% of the 26% hold their land via serjeanty, and that every family has three male members, we get 26%/4/3= 2.1%. This is a fair number, indeed the largest army England ever saw during the 14th century was that of Edward I who briefly mustered 30,000 men.

If we talk about emergency calls such as arrière-ban and heerbann, that technically included "all able-bodied men", well… These are not practical; Ian Heath notes that people called by arrière-ban didn't generally serve further than half a march walk from their home.

Instead of "quick research" and ludicrous assumptions, I'd recommend reading a book, e.g Feudal Armies 1066–1300 by aforementioned Ian Heath.
Ok by max recruitment pool I me
An max number of citizens( wait should I use the term citizens because that term wasn't than, but than what possible shorthand can I use for people that consider themselves loyal to particular kingdom) who can be called upon to serve, not how many that would be called in to serve.

Of course no one is going to send their entire military force to fight a single battle, not even a single campaign, nor will they recruit( I am using term recruitment, but really it's catch all phrase I am using about dozen different methods for gathering military forces saying we all covering 60o years and hundreds of different cultures, governments, and rulers) all eligible citizens for military service. I consider that common sense, but apparently I was wrong. Using your logic the US should invaded Iraq with 10s of millions of troops.

As for why I didn't use book to back me up oh mister, I don't have a book on European levy system laying around and it was 1'o clock in morning.

And I used census from domesday book ( there was but slaves listed, and they where freed, but the Normans just made them serfs, such aren't a factor) was because it's was only accurate census taking of England in this era that has survive. If you got a book with accurate census numbers please share. And if I can't use the domesday book as a source, than why using a book about 1100ad to 1300ad about game with earliest start date is 867, a near 300 years before hand, in cultures that don't follow the western European model of who can fight.

Finally You forget when talking about that 26 percent that Included yeoman, or wealthy non-noble landowner who were expected to serve the levy. So let's remove that 21 percent from the tenant/craftsman being a mix bag.
We still got 5 percent. But let's go further and say that by 1300 they only represented 2.5 of the population ( unlikely to reduced that much, but let's go with it for arguments sake) that gives a use manpower number 75,000. This doesn't include the Noble and their Entourage of squires and man at arms, nor the tenants/craftsman. This o

But is all crazy as the Noble and their personal troops and landowning yeoman would be counted as man at arms. Where tenant farmers and craftsman would count as levy troops more than likely. But reason was someone regard that levy troops were only the weathly landowners.

Another person mentioned ten years replace just 400 lost man. Levy shouldn't take that long to replace as they where expected to fight in formation and only formation. It might take 6 years replace your forces if lost 50,000 man in battle. But to lose let's say 5,000 or 10,000 troops in 1300 ad isn't a huge crippling loss.

You should be able replace those rather quickly as far as levies are concerned as.
It professional soldier or semi professional soldiers on other hand....
 

Wolfshield156

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I don't really care if levy replenishment rates are unrealistic. I want a realistic feel of the game. This one thing where game balance is more important and if things are fudged a bit it doesn't change the overall atmosphere


Men-at-arms were not peasants. Originally any armored cavalryman may be called a knight (knight comes from the German "Knecht", which means "serf" in the sense that they gave military service to their lord). Then knights became a social class of their own and a distinction was made between the noble knights and their non-noble soldiers. Sometimes men-at-arms is used collectively for knights and their paid soldiers. Sometimes it's used only for the non-knights. This could vary with time and location (not every realm functioned like England). But they fought pretty much identically. Their equipment was a lot more expensive than what a peasant would be able to afford and became even more expensive with time. So most them came from more well off social classes between the peasants and nobility.
I agree. The man at arms represented lower ranked Nobles, weathly non-nobles, professional plus semi professional
Soldiers, and mercenaries that hire on at semi permanent basis( depending on culture). The other guy was the one who said every levy man was weathly landowners only. And I never said that man at arms where peasants.
 

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It should take longer yes. CK2 was too mild towards the consequences of war. War should possibly lead to dire consequences and drain up liege's treasury. In CK2 offensive wars are trivial, losing barely brings consequences, at worst I pay up a small sum of money and that's it. It means that there is little reasons not to wage war, and that it wasn't really necessary to prepare for war, nor was that a good idea to make a pause to get some gold back in the treasury and recover losses from war.
 

Wolfshield156

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It should take longer yes. CK2 was too mild towards the consequences of war. War should possibly lead to dire consequences and drain up liege's treasury. In CK2 offensive wars are trivial, losing barely brings consequences, at worst I pay up a small sum of money and that's it. It means that there is little reasons not to wage war, and that it wasn't really necessary to prepare for war, nor was that a good idea to make a pause to get some gold back in the treasury and recover losses from war.
I guess my experience is colored by starting out as a Christian Baltic tribal for the most part. Losing that 150 or 240 gold they is crippling for me that when halt my expansion for years if not decades.
 

Thrake

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I guess my experience is colored by starting out as a Christian Baltic tribal for the most part. Losing that 150 or 240 gold they is crippling for me that when halt my expansion for years if not decades.

War reparations should scale directly with the income of the attacker, I'm confused how you could end up paying that much as a pagan. Non Christian pagans specifically just need to loot and get a pack of prisonners to ransom to pay off debts. Anyway, it's still much safer to me than it would be to go to war if the ennemy would be able to actually say press his claim if you lose.
 

Wolfshield156

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War reparations should scale directly with the income of the attacker, I'm confused how you could end up paying that much as a pagan. Non Christian pagans specifically just need to loot and get a pack of prisonners to ransom to pay off debts. Anyway, it's still much safer to me than it would be to go to war if the ennemy would be able to actually say press his claim if you lose.
I was a Christian ruler... Pagan Homeland penalty meant I couldn't just take a trip to western Europe...and everyone else was just as poor as I was.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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Or they meant free tenants
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_tenant
I don't know, they used the term tenant farmer where got that domesday census from.

No, the 40% figure refers to what Domesday Book calls "villani": http://www.domesdaybook.net/domesday-book/data-terminology/peasantry/villager

In turn the 32% that you titled as "serfs" refers to various unfree men of lower status. Free tenants would belong to freemen.

In the days of the Domesday Book when the Anglo-Saxon fyrd was still in place there definitely was a considerable wealth requirement (either personally as thegn or in community as ceorl) to serve in the King's field army, the so-called select-fyrd. This was one soldier per five hides or 600 fiscal acres in total or 20 times the typical freeman's or villein's land. The men were also well salaried by their communities. In 1090s a fyrd of 20,000 was mustered this way (and then stripped of their salaries and dismissed, in early form of scutage).