If I'm a vassal, my leige can give my lands to populist factions without any input from me. Very stupid and game breaking if you want to play as a vassal
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How is this idiotic feature still in the game
- Thread starter PhantomDerp
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Because building up from the bottom to the top is fun for a lot of people. Simple as that. And it can give you protection from outside invaders in some cases. Less useful if your fellow vassals/liege hate you, but still.
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it can be slightly more challenging playing as an opm vassal which is a good thing
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Aside from the challenge and fun of rising up through the ranks, there can be a lot of great benefits too. Take a look at all of the modifiers from the various feudal contract rights.
March contracts: -%20 army maintenance, +%20 to levy, size/reinforcement rate and garrisons.
Protected: +5 popular opinion on counties, no one can convert your realm and no one can holy war you if you want to change your religion
Fortification rights: +1 fort level, -%15 cost for castle buildings and -%50 to castle holding construction
Coinage rights: +.3 development/month on capital
Council rights: (not necessary but guarantees the benefits) tons of benefits from being a particular role on your lieges council. E.g. Steward nets you +3gold/month, +%20 domain taxes, -%20 building cost, +%20 steward lifestyle experience
These things should not be scoffed at. They aren't easy to get all at once, but by hook or by crook, and a bit of time, you can get them all and with the only real downside being that you can't be an emperor.
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Ok, after some consideration, I agree that your liege shouldn't be able to grant your land to populists. It's a frustrating experience, though I personally think that it provides all the more incentive for you try and amass as much power for yourself and then try to declare independence on your own.
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hey OP, just curious, did the populists occupy your lands before they were given away? or did they magically not exist in your realm anymore with no indication it was going to happen ?
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It's funny that this is the exact reverse of the thread I made about vassals of your vassals demanding land be turned over to foreign rulers without you being made aware. That makes absolutely no sense to me, but there was a bit of a debate about it. One person thought the land isn't yours, even as top liege, so you don't get a say. I think that's silly, and as a vassal, you rule your lands by express grant from your top liege. So he can do with it whatever, or turn it over to whomever, he likes. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be ticked off about it, though.
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so perhaps vassals should get a massive relations penalty for having their land given away? (except via war i guess)
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I think this has a similar solution as the other situation. In that case only your vassal is notified, when it should be notifying the top liege when the vassal goes to war or gives in to the demand. In this case the top liege is notified but it should be the vassal who is notified first.
Not the OP, but I have had this happen before. The populist faction forms against your liege (so you have no direct input on it), and eventually presses its demands. If they fought and won the war, that would be fine (the player can intervene), but the problem is that the AI liege can instead agree to accept their demands rather than fight a revolt - which instantly grants those counties independence with no input from the player.
It's the flipside of the demands you get as a player when a faction presses its demands - you can either say "ok, I'll grant them" or fight the war. The AI also gets that pop-up, and sometimes will agree to give in.
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In order to fabricate a claim on your liege, of course, and turn the entire Persian Empire into a Jewish Khazar realm in one generation.
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In a medieval context, it makes little to no sense that a top liege would do as they please with the lands of vassals. In the vast majority of case, absolute authority was simply not a thing.
It would only make sense if the vassal is deemed a traitor for some reason and the top liege don't consider them a rightful ruler.
But it also doesn't make sense that vassals would simply do whatever they please with the lands they rule in accordance to the feudal contract they made with their liege. They can't decide to secede or give away their lands. They can still rule over other territories as independant rulers or even vassals of other intermediary rulers between them and their top lieges, but the lands they are "given" and only theirs as long as they remain vassals.
Those two things aren't contradictory. They are the definition of feudality. Vassals are the dynastic rulers of lands that are confered to them by their liege, and it is their duty to remain loyal vassals, defend the land, and administer justice. In exchange, their liege can't just decide that their land should go to someone else without good reasons, at least until absolutism.
Vassals aren't like temporary governors that can be retracted on will.
It would only make sense if the vassal is deemed a traitor for some reason and the top liege don't consider them a rightful ruler.
But it also doesn't make sense that vassals would simply do whatever they please with the lands they rule in accordance to the feudal contract they made with their liege. They can't decide to secede or give away their lands. They can still rule over other territories as independant rulers or even vassals of other intermediary rulers between them and their top lieges, but the lands they are "given" and only theirs as long as they remain vassals.
Those two things aren't contradictory. They are the definition of feudality. Vassals are the dynastic rulers of lands that are confered to them by their liege, and it is their duty to remain loyal vassals, defend the land, and administer justice. In exchange, their liege can't just decide that their land should go to someone else without good reasons, at least until absolutism.
Vassals aren't like temporary governors that can be retracted on will.
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What would make most sense would be an ascending series of responsibilities. If we take vassalhood as including responsibility to keep peace in their territory, then these populist factions should first be dealt with at the county-holder's level. If the holder of the relevant counties want to give in, or lose the first stage of the war, then the populists should get a power boost and now the county-holder's liege, if any, get's involved, as their local vassals have failed to deal with the rebellious faction. So a successful populist rebellion would have to defeat or have each level of liege acquiesce in order set up their independent state. They would have to be balanced against the power of each stage of the liege so that they recoup losses against the count before they face the duke, etc. But a common thing here could be the local counts failing to keep the rebellion under and the Duke bringing larger power to bear. Instead of "give up to the faction", the response would be "ask my liege to handle this". And then only an independent ruler would truly be able to fully surrender.
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Right now playing as a vassal feels like a proof-of-concept at best and not a real gameplay feature.
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It can be fun to play a loyal Vassal, one that always has your liege's back. It's a different kind of playstyle from storming your way to the top. But it can be fun. Remember, not everyone WCs...
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And in theory you could WC as a vassal, on behalf of your liege - just paint the map your liege's colour instead of yours.
I kind of want to do a papal vassal campaign that way, but I'm not sure if the Pope will create Emperor titles if he has the land.
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I never play as a vassal myself, almost, but even I understand why many would do so and find it fun.
play one of the great houses, diversifying gameplay or Just plain shenanigans like dismantling the empire. It can be so much better still, but its far from unplayable tbh