How is the micromanagement in 2.2.3/4?

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TheAtreides84

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There's an article by RockPaperShotgun which starts with the idea that a game can say something about a subject such as progress or society, then makes the argument that the 4x genre has grown stagnant because they are games about progress without having anything at all to say about the subject. It introduces two games which have said interesting things about progress, one of which is Victoria II by Paradox. The reason Victoria II is in that article is because "progress reshapes societies around the new needs it creates".

Quite interesting. The problem I see here is that "progress" isn't a real, measurable phenomenon, it's an abstract model of history born from the Enlightenment and positivism (and then marxism). It's a specular model to the classical antiquity hesiodean idea of decadence. But history doesn't respond well to inductive reasoning and there is no real reason to believe in a specific pattern, as can be easily demonstrated by pointing at the most literate and culturally advanced country in the world falling to nazism just eighty years ago, or at the status of women in early Christianity vs medieval Christianity, or at how animal rights were an issue for Plutarch, and then went basically unnoticed in western thought until Bentham, or at Islam spawning Mutazilism in the 8th century and Wahhabism in the 18th, or at economical inequality growing right now after half a century of middle class expansion. There are lots of examples.

That said, progress is what the fun is about in 4X games. Your have to have some consistent way of improving your civ according to some established criteria. If those games were to simulate history, then there would be no such way. And honestly I think most players would just restart the game if faced with bouts of general decadence beyond their control.
 
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AlanC9

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Suddenly I wonder if a Spenglerian SF game would work. (Does Emperor of the Fading Suns count?)
 

Dr. B

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So, folks, just a little TL;DR for a lazy guy with a huge Steam backlog who really hates micro and loves automation: would be worth it to play Stellaris now, or do I just have to wait indefinitely?
Well I started this thread to find the same answer, and as far as I can judge, we should wait a couple of patches or versions at least. The computer need better tools to handle the economy, lots of micro, there are some nasty bugs, and the AI capability in general seems to be poor. (According to a lot of well-informed posts here.)
 

MichaelJanuary

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I found that my first few games the micro was intense, but later as I got to understand the economy I could plan better, knew what to look for, and the micro reduced considerably.

The interface is poor though. You have to click each planet then wade through multiple tabs to do simple things and mouse over everything to read tooltips. The cyclical 'planet scan' is a mouse killer.

The game could really do with a few good planet liste, for pops, buildings and decisions. Being able to drag and drop pops on such lists would be amazing.

Once you understand the econ, and even the sector AI, you can step back quite a bit. It may not be optimal, but it's hardly game breaking to leave the sector AI to fill your planets with production buildings. You can always correct it by replacing a few buildings from time to time.

It's an 80/20 choice. 80% optimal with 20% of the micro. However you do need to monitor the AI or things will run away from you badly.
 

Pseudopod

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I would rather decrease constituents benefits, then my pops should look for job opportunities on other colonies. Now I have to point them where to go. Imagine that your president or king came to your house and told you - "Hey, I see that you are uneplyed, look 1500 light years from here is a planet called "End of the Galaxy" we are looking for proficient miners there, pls go there and work for the greater good". They should look for it themselves or become criminals.

I have a nice idea, there should be a policy to encourage pops to move to new colonies, or to colonies with vacancies. Then it would depent what would they choose.
I agree. There should be something opposite to distribute luxury goods. Spend some money instead to encourage emigration.
 

FlyingPhoenix

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Quite interesting. The problem I see here is that "progress" isn't a real, measurable phenomenon, it's an abstract model of history born from the Enlightenment and positivism (and then marxism). It's a specular model to the classical antiquity hesiodean idea of decadence. But history doesn't respond well to inductive reasoning and there is no real reason to believe in a specific pattern, as can be easily demonstrated by pointing at the most literate and culturally advanced country in the world falling to nazism just eighty years ago, or at the status of women in early Christianity vs medieval Christianity, or at how animal rights were an issue for Plutarch, and then went basically unnoticed in western thought until Bentham, or at Islam spawning Mutazilism in the 8th century and Wahhabism in the 18th, or at economical inequality growing right now after half a century of middle class expansion. There are lots of examples.

That said, progress is what the fun is about in 4X games. Your have to have some consistent way of improving your civ according to some established criteria. If those games were to simulate history, then there would be no such way. And honestly I think most players would just restart the game if faced with bouts of general decadence beyond their control.
By progress, I mean change and dynamism, but the focus of my take is more what does this say about the societies themselves.

The issue from the RPS article is that progress in 4x strategy games doesn't exist, because any progress you make is incremental and negligible when compared to others.

I feel this discussion could be spun into its own thread
 

Uncle_Joe

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For my $.02, I find that the early game micro is fine and the decisions are interesting.

Mid/late game it becomes more of a grind. Once you have a dozen or more worlds, it seems to take more or less constant input to keep things running smoothly. I've tried delegating control to Sector AIs but unfortunately their management of the systems just seems to create more problems than it solves (wide-spread unemployment and high crime, building extraneous facilities that needless strain certain raw resources etc).

A good part of it is the UI and lack of certain options but some of it is simple a byproduct of the way the economy overall has been reworked. I wish the Secotr AI was more reliable and I could just fire and and forget like I did in the old system. Yes, it wasn't perfect but 1) you had no choice once you hit a certain size) and 2) there were less dependencies so the AI could't really do as much 'damage' by building inefficiently.
 

Dr. B

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For my $.02, I find that the early game micro is fine and the decisions are interesting.

Mid/late game it becomes more of a grind. Once you have a dozen or more worlds, it seems to take more or less constant input to keep things running smoothly. I've tried delegating control to Sector AIs but unfortunately their management of the systems just seems to create more problems than it solves (wide-spread unemployment and high crime, building extraneous facilities that needless strain certain raw resources etc).

A good part of it is the UI and lack of certain options but some of it is simple a byproduct of the way the economy overall has been reworked. I wish the Secotr AI was more reliable and I could just fire and and forget like I did in the old system. Yes, it wasn't perfect but 1) you had no choice once you hit a certain size) and 2) there were less dependencies so the AI could't really do as much 'damage' by building inefficiently.
This is the issue that stop me from sending my time on Stellaris. Thanks for the confirmation of what others have explained.

If only it would be possible to let the empire mange itself once you have a sizeable empire, but this seems to be really difficult to get to work ok.