• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

ThuderLizard2

Major
31 Badges
Jan 3, 2009
502
55
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Darkest Hour
I'm about to bail on Hoi4 after waiting almost two years for the AI to get fixed. We'll see if the next patch helps.

I'm considering dropping back to Hoi3. A few questions on the Hoi3 AI:

* Does it defend reasonably well against invasions by garrisoning ports and defending sea lanes?
* Does it destroy its equipment and manpower with suicidal attacks against forts?
* How well does the AI handle naval combat mechanics?
* What is the general consensus on the state of the Hoi3 AI
 

marxianTJ

Lt. General
37 Badges
Apr 11, 2011
1.609
233
  • March of the Eagles
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
1. It depends on how you define "reasonably well" There are some countries that do do it fairly well. There are two major exceptions that really dont - those are the UK and Japan who typically home-island garrisons that are way too small, and fleets that are to spread out to respond fast enough.

2. Nope, in fact hoi3's AI is super paranoid about forts and may refuse to attack them at all even with overwhelmingly superior numbers.

3. It really doesn't. The AI was virtually unchanged since the earlier iterations of hoi3 and as such the naval AI performs *very* suboptimally.

4. It's passable? Some of the mods claim to have improved AI, but I can't speak to that not having played them.
 

incognitus

General
25 Badges
Jun 17, 2011
1.848
114
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Let me add a non-professional opinion to this XD
1. It depends on how you define "reasonably well" There are some countries that do do it fairly well. There are two major exceptions that really dont - those are the UK and Japan who typically home-island garrisons that are way too small, and fleets that are to spread out to respond fast enough.

2. Nope, in fact hoi3's AI is super paranoid about forts and may refuse to attack them at all even with overwhelmingly superior numbers.

3. It really doesn't. The AI was virtually unchanged since the earlier iterations of hoi3 and as such the naval AI performs *very* suboptimally.

4. It's passable? Some of the mods claim to have improved AI, but I can't speak to that not having played them.
1. Everything TJ said is correct, but: Neither the UK nor Japan will be defeated if you take their home island. So it isn't game breaking that they do this. Also, what is important to note is that the AI doesn't "game the game", but you are likely to do just that. What do I mean? Well, take Norway for example. Oslo is their only VP, so they should have every single unit defending it, but they don't. They are trying to defend the country, not the VP. This means that there are countries, where if you target the VPs you can take them out in a day (Denmark), because they are unguarded. Basically it's like this: If you want the AI to appear competent, never ever look at the VP map.
Plus there's scripted behaviour, that can be smarter than the normal AI, unless you exploit the script.
2. I don't know. I defend so badly that I usually just constantly attack and don't use forts.
3. Well... I guess what TJ says is true, technically, but "your experience may differ". Mine certainly does. I constantly and consistently get destroyed by the AI, no matter what I do. Sure, I don't focus heavily on building a navy, but even as Japan, I have to be super cautious with my nave in order to avoid losing a ton of ships. So unless you go pro like TJ or Kovax, I think you will find the AI naval game to be more than challenging enough (even on Normal). What is a bit of an issue, is how poorly the AI guards its remote ports. For example, you will more often than not be able to land troops in Inverness (northern Scotland) even without destroying any British ships. But it's a crappy port and you will only be able to supply a small number of units. Plus your convoys to the UK will get raided non-stop.
4. Good question. I think consensus would be "no worse than HOI4, but different". I have well over 1000 hours on my HOI3 timer and I have yet to see AI behaviour that made me facepalm. It's not stupid, it's not super efficient. I think the AI uses air forces (and navies) better than I can, which is partially because I just don't have the patience for micro managing teensy air wings and scheduling their flight plans. The only exception is Germany, which has been scripted to do something really stupid, which is remove huge amounts of (badly needed) troops from the eastern front to swat rebels in France. You can fix this by either disabling rebels altogether (which is what I did and it massively improves my enjoyment of the game) or you can make sure that YOU conquer France/BeNeLux instead of Germany (in case you're allied) OR you could station troops in France to deal with this issue for the Germans. I don't know if suppression works on allied territory, worst case you'd have to put one brigade of Militia in every province.

tl;dr: I'd get HOI3, if I were you.
 

Count Blue

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Mar 21, 2013
2.967
1.111
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
I'm considering dropping back to Hoi3. A few questions on the Hoi3 AI:
* What is the general consensus on the state of the Hoi3 AI

I am going to give you as truthful an answer as I can. (Some die-hard fans might disagree)

Honestly, the AI in HOI3 is not that much better than the one in HOI4 it only seems its faults matter less.:rolleyes:

Yes, it does not do suicide attacks commonly across the board but it does support-attacks and other complex stuff that can sometimes lead to disaster for it. It still can not do a correct threat assessment however its not completly stupid always.

I think the state of the AI (the engine) is the same state it was in 2009 when the last patch for the game was published.
It has not been changed since that. So thats that.

To me the game (HOI3) is still a better game experience than HOi4 is, specially with the mods.:cool:

EDIT:
The naval game is pretty unpredictable sometime. I believe the air war is better controllable.

EMU´d two times. ;)
 
Last edited:

Kovax

Field Marshal
10 Badges
May 13, 2003
9.160
7.205
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I'd tend to agree with the above replies. The HOI3 AI is certainly not spectacular, but its flaws are "usually" less serious than those in HOI4 (often the exact same flaws, but the AI is less dependent on Battle Plans and other constraints, so some of the problems aren't an issue in most cases). There are a few exceptions, such as if/when Germany sends 100+ armored and motorized divisions into the mountains of central Norway to try to reach the capital from the wrong end of the country, and attrition kills more Germans than the Soviets will in the next year or two, until Germany runs itself out of Manpower.

If you place a few self-restrictions, such as not invading the UK's or Japan's home islands until you've broken their fleet or taken X amount of other territory from them, it plays out pretty well most of the time.

The AI shows moments of complete competence and moments of Artificial Idiocy. On the one hand, it will pull troops back from a threatened pocket and hold the flanks until it escapes, make spoiler attacks to prevent you from reinforcing a fight, and launch attacks on a province from multiple directions......and then on the other hand it will pull a critical unit off the front line to cover a gap somewhere else, leaving a hole where it abandoned the front, or send a pathetically slow Garrison division to complete an encirclement.....eventually. It may launch an attack at mediocre odds, or launch separate attacks from different provinces out of sync with each other (and then the second and third units sit there uselessly until they can advance to fill the frontage), and sometimes continues the attack until the original attacking unit has run itself out of Organization, but more often than not it will break off the attack when the odds turn against it. The AI is skittish when it comes to attacking forts, although it does eventually launch an attack once it gathers what it considers to be sufficient strength. On the bright side, it doesn't throw away equipment in those attacks, because HOI3 doesn't have that aspect of producing equipment separately from the brigade or division itself. Overall, it could definitely use some work, but it's generally not the nightmare that it is in HOI4.

The real down sides of the HOI3 AI is that it cannot distinguish between an Infantry division, a Garrison division, an Armored division, a Mountain division, and so on, and will happily use them interchangeably regardless of the terrain; it also has problems with tailoring a response to the magnitude of the threat, sometimes pulling a couple of Corps off the front line in one area to hunt down a lone Partisan unit in another area.

The naval and air campaigns need to be closely watched, as the AI is functional to a point, but will fail to rotate out damaged units, break off their mission, or send them back to port. Ignoring them for too long can lead to needless and expensive losses.
 

incognitus

General
25 Badges
Jun 17, 2011
1.848
114
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
The real down sides of the HOI3 AI is that it cannot distinguish between an Infantry division, a Garrison division, an Armored division, a Mountain division, and so on, and will happily use them interchangeably regardless of the terrain; it also has problems with tailoring a response to the magnitude of the threat, sometimes pulling a couple of Corps off the front line in one area to hunt down a lone Partisan unit in another area.
I was thinking about this issue as well. Could this be addressed by modding what units the AI has? I mean... wouldn't it make sense to not give the AI any GAR brigades whatsoever? Does the AI actually build GAR or do they just use what they start with? In the latter case, it might be a good idea to just upgrade all GAR in the 1936 bookmark to either INF or downgrade to MIL. I think the way the AI uses GAR is the worst offender and the one where some modding could make the biggest difference.
 

Kovax

Field Marshal
10 Badges
May 13, 2003
9.160
7.205
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I was thinking about this issue as well. Could this be addressed by modding what units the AI has? I mean... wouldn't it make sense to not give the AI any GAR brigades whatsoever? Does the AI actually build GAR or do they just use what they start with? In the latter case, it might be a good idea to just upgrade all GAR in the 1936 bookmark to either INF or downgrade to MIL. I think the way the AI uses GAR is the worst offender and the one where some modding could make the biggest difference.
That might solve a third of the problem. The other two thirds is that the AI would STILL use Armor to garrison ports or drive through the mountains, and STILL use MTN and MAR (with practically no Piercing or HA) in the open plains against Armor. It also seems to treat HQs as combat divisions in some cases.

Hilariously enough, in one game I saw AI Germany invaded Denmark in late '39 or early '40 with ONE division of 3xINF, 2-3 GAR divisions, and more than half a dozen HQs. It actually took Denmark with that, eventually, by around 1942. To the AI, that was probably "10 divisions", even though more than half of them were HQs with no combat capability at all.
 

ThuderLizard2

Major
31 Badges
Jan 3, 2009
502
55
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Darkest Hour
Could this be addressed by modding what units the AI has? I mean... wouldn't it make sense to not give the AI any GAR brigades whatsoever?

Have modders been able to address the AI deficiencies? In HOI4 the Expert AI mod has address the suicidal charge problem by changing some defines but other issues are not fixable by other than PDS.
 

incognitus

General
25 Badges
Jun 17, 2011
1.848
114
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Have modders been able to address the AI deficiencies? In HOI4 the Expert AI mod has address the suicidal charge problem by changing some defines but other issues are not fixable by other than PDS.
I haven't been playing mods, so I cannot answer that for you. BICE seems to be the only massively popular mod for HOI3 that I keep hearing about, but it is (to the best of my knowledge and after several hours of research and trying to get into it) vastly more complex (read: complicated) than HOI3, which in itself is (to the best of my knowledge and after listening to the folks here) vastly more complex than HOI4... so... unless you plan to "learn" the game for 100 hours before being able to "play" it, you might want to stick with vanilla and mod what you want to change yourself. Especially since for every change you like in a mod, there will be a change that you don't like...
 

Kovax

Field Marshal
10 Badges
May 13, 2003
9.160
7.205
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
BICE is far more complex, particularly in terms of units and division structure. You also have to "game the game" to "unlock" special units and other features. That's not why or how I typically play. There are several interesting and very elaborately detailed mods out there, but each seems to change one thing to my liking and something else to something that I really don't like. I still play "vanilla" probably slightly more often than all of the mods combined.

Several mods have made changes and/or improvements to the AI ("AI Improvements", "Total Reality Project", "Historical Plausibility Project", and so on), but there's only so much that can be done with the "defines" files; anything more will require Paradox to change stuff in the .exe file.
 

Count Blue

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Mar 21, 2013
2.967
1.111
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
BICE is far more complex, particularly in terms of units and division structure. You also have to "game the game" to "unlock" special units and other features.

BICE is a way to play HOI3 where the shortcomings of the AI are camouflaged by scripting of the modders. ;)
I love it.
 

kriegkopf

Captain
2 Badges
Jan 19, 2015
313
15
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
BICE is a way to play HOI3 where the shortcomings of the AI are camouflaged by scripting of the modders. ;)
I love it.

Me too. Dont think I could go back to vanilla. And there is always a "surprise" or two! not encountered previously in every campaign.
 

Count Blue

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Mar 21, 2013
2.967
1.111
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
Me too. Dont think I could go back to vanilla. And there is always a "surprise" or two! not encountered previously in every campaign.

Now that you mention it, I wanted to write a lengthy essay about that.

If one plays nowadays BICE 9.11 UTR/TRE/GGA repeatedly
one might notice that almost no game is like the previous
yet still all resemble a kind of WWII and thats a great achievement I believe.

I really would like to break a lance for all what the modders have done.
Not only has a great amount of research gone into the details of BICE and UTR/TRE/GGA
but also the events that play out, invasions, partisan uprisings, well all the paraphrenalia of
WWII this all contributes to a great game experience in my book.

If all the whole thing would need a little care taken debugging wise maybe.
Not to complain, because I have game sessions of 14-16 hours so I guess
game stability in general is not that bad.
Of course some individual experiences vary greatly.
 

Kovax

Field Marshal
10 Badges
May 13, 2003
9.160
7.205
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
Has anyone played the Downfall mod - advertised as being vanilla+ with an improved AI?
Played it for a while. Not bad at all, but I prefer "The Fox and the Lion" and a couple of other mods over it. Basically, practically every mod has a strong point, and I play different mods for different reasons. Until you've played for a while and know what you like and prefer, other peoples' suggestions are going to be mostly matters of personal opinion, which may not match your own preferences. The "vanilla" game is fine for learning the fundamentals, at the very least, before you start mod-hunting.
 

Kovax

Field Marshal
10 Badges
May 13, 2003
9.160
7.205
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I decided to fire up BlCE again, since my memory of it is a bit spotty at best. Setting up all of the techs, decisions, and other preliminary stuff took me well over an hour, and then as the game started running, it made other changes which required me to reset a lot of what I had previously set. Eventually, I got it to where I was satisfied and let it start running for a few minutes, and made it through the first two months of the game, by which point I was out of evening and needed to get some sleep. Saved the game, or at least started to, and then it crashed to desktop, with a Windows message that "hoi3_tfh.exe" has stopped responding". An evening totally wasted. I guess I'm not playing BICE again.
 

Count Blue

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Mar 21, 2013
2.967
1.111
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
I guess I'm not playing BICE again.

Do a save right after you start the game.
For some reason if this works all other saves work too, at least here with me.

If not delete save game retry one more time. Usually the second time a round it works.

I have not the faintest idea what is causing this exactly, but apart from that I do run the game 14-16 hours straight without probs.
With a hell a lot of fun, even if its all scripted. ;)
 

kriegkopf

Captain
2 Badges
Jan 19, 2015
313
15
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
@Kovax
Sorry if you know this already, but before you start a game go to Documents/HOI/Black Ice/logs and delete whats in that folder. You should do this every time before you fire up the game. Dont give up yet! BI 9.11 is AWESOME

I expect this is the likely culprit.
 
Last edited: