I usually always spam subs for raiding convoys in the Atlantic, but how are battleships and/or carriers at intercepting and sinking convoys?
Thanks,
Thanks,
How good are surface ships at convoy raiding?
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Default 100% efficiency.
Doctrine and surface detection help
With the right fleet, you can probably knock out the convoy faster.
Edit: forgot to add, consider enemy air cover and posable strike fleets and escort fleets. Subs are generally better operating in hostile territory.
Doctrine and surface detection help
With the right fleet, you can probably knock out the convoy faster.
Edit: forgot to add, consider enemy air cover and posable strike fleets and escort fleets. Subs are generally better operating in hostile territory.
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What country vs. who?
We don't want Germany surface ships going thru the channel for repair, for example.
We don't want Germany surface ships going thru the channel for repair, for example.
That's a risky move and the UK will send a strike fleet if they start losing convoy, they also patrol a lot of the north sea. You will require a repair haven and some sort of sub scouting to detect incoming fleets so you can move off the convoy route till the strike fleet goes back home. Otherwise, fast boats and a carrier would work best at preventing convoy or escorts from escaping. Such a fleet would drink lots of fuel. I'd stick with some advanced subs out of air range, with luck you can wipe out a great deal of retaliation ships. Your subs also have way more bonuses thru doctrine.
I had Turkish subs operating in the African coast 12, before having to replace that sub fleet they sank over 50 convoy and 45 warships and put a big dent in UK's fuel stock.
I also had a small sub fleet just to the north as passive scouts so I could see them coming. Sinking the escort ships by intent, I accidently engaged the large strike fleet and was shocked to sink the entire fleet.
I had Turkish subs operating in the African coast 12, before having to replace that sub fleet they sank over 50 convoy and 45 warships and put a big dent in UK's fuel stock.
I also had a small sub fleet just to the north as passive scouts so I could see them coming. Sinking the escort ships by intent, I accidently engaged the large strike fleet and was shocked to sink the entire fleet.
Let say you're convoy raiding UK as Germany. That is an idea:
You can use DD2, with 2x light batteries or 2x dual-purpose guns and 1x torpedo module and AA, to raid waters around UK. Because they are very fast and have good AA, they will be very hard to be destroy by planes or ASW DDs.
To the middle of the Atlantic, you will prefer a ships more friendly on fuel, like Heavy Cruisers instead of BBs or BCs, followed by 3 Light Cruisers as screen (because you need long range). You should make them as fast as you can. The CA i use have 2x medium batteries, 1x torpedo, 1x catapult, 1x AA, and 2x dual-purpose guns, with the best armor. To the LC, you can use the same build, changing the batteries.
Despite your aim be the enemy convoys, you will notice that they work extremely well when in water filled with allied submarines, because almost every time that they attack a convoy, they will destroy its entire escort, giving free score to the SUBs.
(Don't forget to set them to attack at low risk; to retreat together to repair; and to add radar and eletronic sights.)
P.S.: Mines around UK helps too.
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I haven't played Germany in a long time and when I did, I was obsessed with infrastructure instead of factories so I never had much of a navy.
Also before air and naval updates.
Happy Trigger is who ya want to listen too.
Also before air and naval updates.
Happy Trigger is who ya want to listen too.
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As Japan, at war with the Axis, I had submarines and surface raiders stationed in the North Sea, North Atlantic, Mediterranean, and the West African Coast. The surface raiders were older DDs and light cruisers which did very well off the coast of West Africa where the Axis had no air support. If they went into the Mediterranean or next or to Norway and Denmark then Axis air power would take them out.
Where the enemy had no airpower or surface fleets, the surface raiders were as good or better than subs, and cheaper than newer subs.
Where the enemy had no airpower or surface fleets, the surface raiders were as good or better than subs, and cheaper than newer subs.
I think the best way to surface raid, and the only way which is worth specifically building ships for, is to raid with light cruisers only. It kills escorts and patrols in addition to the convoys, and if a big strike force shows its face, it can probably escape without too much damage. The AI struggles to deal with it. Of course, it might be able to answer with naval bombers; I haven't tested this where the enemy had a meaningful number of them.
Even though I'm advocating for this, I still think submarine raiding is the right way to go most of the time. I developed this trick for raiding in shallow waters where submarines can get in big trouble, and that's probably where it ought to be used.
Keep in mind that, once the enemy's main battle fleet is out of commission, or if they never had one to begin with, you can just kind of do whatever you want. Go ahead and surface raid with whatever ships you have, put strong patrols out ... anything goes. Just, again, watch out for bombers. Seems there's some base value for spotting even when the enemy has no naval presence whatsoever, no radars, no air superiority ... nothing.
Even though I'm advocating for this, I still think submarine raiding is the right way to go most of the time. I developed this trick for raiding in shallow waters where submarines can get in big trouble, and that's probably where it ought to be used.
Keep in mind that, once the enemy's main battle fleet is out of commission, or if they never had one to begin with, you can just kind of do whatever you want. Go ahead and surface raid with whatever ships you have, put strong patrols out ... anything goes. Just, again, watch out for bombers. Seems there's some base value for spotting even when the enemy has no naval presence whatsoever, no radars, no air superiority ... nothing.
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I also want to point out, if it's not really meta or not, a 1940 sub with electric torpedo, rank 3 radar, rank 3 launchers and rank 3 engine, produced during 1940 is really op.
Probably the the most advanced ship on the seas for a couple years, assuming trade interdiction of coarse.
Probably the the most advanced ship on the seas for a couple years, assuming trade interdiction of coarse.
Surface raiding works to an extent. I've used it a bit as Fascist Dutch to annoy the Brits. I build 3-4 battlecruisers (the ones you get from the focus) together with some fast cruisers and aimed to harass the Atlantic by operating out of Curacao. Only problem if spotting danger in advance to retreat as the Home Fleet will ruin your day if they ever catch you.
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The big key for surface raiders is the AI usually sends 6 destroyers and 2 light cruisers; as a result, I usually like raiding with light cruisers (with some armor, to block critical hits at best), with capital ships being helpful for extra firepower but not essential (CAs are good here for the fairly-high light attack you can get on them). If you can spare the fuel, however, larger groups will kill off escort squadrons without taking much damage, so they're more efficient for staying in the field longer.
Commerce raiding with cruisers near South Africa is downright broken. Typically I'll use something like 12 cruisers (9+ CLs and the 3 panzerschiffe Germany starts with), and its too far away from British ports (for some reason they don't use South Africa's) to send strike forces there. I've literally killed hundreds of destroyers down there because the AI doesn't react to it, they just keep sending more escort squadrons and losing both convoys and escorts. Anywhere around Africa tends to be pretty good for raiding, but South Africa is good for both spotting and funneling ships (especially if the British lose either the Suez or Gibraltar). The Straits of Malacca are pretty good too, but the British are more likely to get strike forces there (most of the best raiding spots are near major naval bases).
That's the real benefit of surface raiders compared to submarine raiders: killing the escorts. If you kill off enough escort ships, sooner or later the British (or whoever else) are simply going to start running out of screens, and if they pull their escort missions from fleet screens then their strike forces aren't going to have the screens to defend against torpedo attacks (and once you run out of screens, capital ships die like flies to torpedo attack).
Commerce raiding with cruisers near South Africa is downright broken. Typically I'll use something like 12 cruisers (9+ CLs and the 3 panzerschiffe Germany starts with), and its too far away from British ports (for some reason they don't use South Africa's) to send strike forces there. I've literally killed hundreds of destroyers down there because the AI doesn't react to it, they just keep sending more escort squadrons and losing both convoys and escorts. Anywhere around Africa tends to be pretty good for raiding, but South Africa is good for both spotting and funneling ships (especially if the British lose either the Suez or Gibraltar). The Straits of Malacca are pretty good too, but the British are more likely to get strike forces there (most of the best raiding spots are near major naval bases).
That's the real benefit of surface raiders compared to submarine raiders: killing the escorts. If you kill off enough escort ships, sooner or later the British (or whoever else) are simply going to start running out of screens, and if they pull their escort missions from fleet screens then their strike forces aren't going to have the screens to defend against torpedo attacks (and once you run out of screens, capital ships die like flies to torpedo attack).
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The question here is "How good are they?", but the real question is "How good are they as compared to Sub raiding?", so I'll just go ahead and answer that.
The biggest benefit that you get from a surface raider fleet compared to a sub fleet is the comparatively large opportunity cost to stop it. Someone up there mentioned...
Fantastic! In the case that your fleet has more to it than simply raiders, you have just successfully forced a disproportionately large group of ships to break off and chase a much smaller group around. Then, if you're using scary enough ships, they can't exactly scout for them very effectively either, forcing them to either run capitals on convoy escort- not ideal, especially if you have some way to get naval bomber support- or throw scout ships into the danger zone, giving you some easy kills without a great chance of retaliation as a result.
In other words, the amount of ships that are posted for your strike fleet have gone down quite dramatically, and they may open themselves up for operations like mining, hunting trips for straggler ships, or even a naval invasion, given their sacrifice of naval superiority in more important areas. The best part is, as long as you're somewhat efficient at microing your raider squadrons (e.g. you can move them when things start getting really hairy), it's not even like they themselves tend to be that much at-risk.
Outside of the very large convoy groups that you might find performing a naval invasion, though, surface raiders aren't really better (or worse) than sub fleets at actually killing convoys, despite the cost disparity. If you're not in a situation where you would need/want ships to go on a wild goose chase, it's not really worth doing at all.
The place you really see it becoming more useful is in MP, where players will use more ASW ships to patrol against submarines. If you surprise a light convoy escort group with some hardy ships strong in Light Attack, you just sunk a load of convoys and their guardians, which not only puts your opponent in a much worse spot, but also opens up the area to safer undersea raiding (unless they start pulling heavier ships to send yours off, in which case, back to the first issue). Now that's a win-win.
The biggest benefit that you get from a surface raider fleet compared to a sub fleet is the comparatively large opportunity cost to stop it. Someone up there mentioned...
Fantastic! In the case that your fleet has more to it than simply raiders, you have just successfully forced a disproportionately large group of ships to break off and chase a much smaller group around. Then, if you're using scary enough ships, they can't exactly scout for them very effectively either, forcing them to either run capitals on convoy escort- not ideal, especially if you have some way to get naval bomber support- or throw scout ships into the danger zone, giving you some easy kills without a great chance of retaliation as a result.
In other words, the amount of ships that are posted for your strike fleet have gone down quite dramatically, and they may open themselves up for operations like mining, hunting trips for straggler ships, or even a naval invasion, given their sacrifice of naval superiority in more important areas. The best part is, as long as you're somewhat efficient at microing your raider squadrons (e.g. you can move them when things start getting really hairy), it's not even like they themselves tend to be that much at-risk.
Outside of the very large convoy groups that you might find performing a naval invasion, though, surface raiders aren't really better (or worse) than sub fleets at actually killing convoys, despite the cost disparity. If you're not in a situation where you would need/want ships to go on a wild goose chase, it's not really worth doing at all.
The place you really see it becoming more useful is in MP, where players will use more ASW ships to patrol against submarines. If you surprise a light convoy escort group with some hardy ships strong in Light Attack, you just sunk a load of convoys and their guardians, which not only puts your opponent in a much worse spot, but also opens up the area to safer undersea raiding (unless they start pulling heavier ships to send yours off, in which case, back to the first issue). Now that's a win-win.
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Absolutely. The most devastating effect is achieved by having both light'ish surface raiders and your standard submarine squadrons.
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Wouldn` you surface raiders be easily destroyed by NAVs/CV naval bombers / TAC?
Not in the middle of the Atlantic and other sea zones far way from ports and airfields. I believe you can only destroy surface raiders, with FAST task forces (maybe faster than the enemy) doing patrol missions, set to engage the enemy; and don't forget lots of Radar.
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1940 TAC has 2500 km range, extendable by further 50%, that should allow full coverage of pretty much all Atlantic ocean from Carrabin, Bermuda and African coast. It doesn't have huge attack, but your raiders probably don't come in large fleets packed with AA either. You can also order convoys to not enter a few uncovered sea zones.
Then, you can deploy your old carriers with 1940 NAV to hunt raider fleet.
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You're supposing an ideal scenario here. You just need one light batterie in a surface raider - i would dare to say that cruiser don't need lots of batteries anyway-, the other slots can be filled with dual-purpose guns, and its worth remind you that electronic sights improve AA. Not only that, these ships are normally operating at more than 30 knots, so they really are hard to hit with planes, but if you think about it, that is their purpose, to draw enemy attention, while your submarines are free to create havoc.
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Then they wouldn't be that different from cruisers/dds you enemy might deploy anyway, and being outnumbered in similar ships will get you killed fast.
Huh, is speed impact on air damage even in game?
You pay in tech, you build expensive ships, and all you get in return is forcing enemy ASW hunter killers.and patrols off station, till air power dents enemy raiders into port/to the bottom of ocean. Is it worth is?
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