How economic cycles could be modeled

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mikhail321

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Economic cycles were one of defining features of Victorian age and beyond with broad repercussions for politics and international relations (to give just the obvious example, both nazism and US Dem party new deal are children of the Great Depression). I was thinking how they can be modeled.
For this I’m assuming a rather closed monetary system (with money supply limited by precious metal mining) and an investment pool linked to pops savings but not identical to it.
The way I’d see it is to track the total cumulative amount pops have contributed over time to the investment pool as capital employed. Dividing total expected yearly dividends by the capital employed will give you return on capital employed (ROCE), which in turn will determine what share of their accumulated savings pops contribute to the investment pool. I would also make it possible to withdraw part of their savings from the pool, and even to let the pool going into negative, which should give negative modifiers to buildings simulating financial distress.
The way it would work is the following:
At first you have plenty of land, deposits and labor available (in subsistence farms and unemployed), aristocrats and state employees have large unfulfilled demands for consumer goods and capital is your major constraint for growth. The first buildings you construct turn in healthy profits, pops contribute their savings into investment pool and the economy grows exponentially. Than you start hitting other limitations - land, raw materials, infrastructure, qualified labor force. The ROCE falls and pops start to withdraw their savings. As they do so the investment pool dries up or turns negative. The reduced investment affect cyclical industries like construction, machinery, steel and other materials. They lay off workers and it drives down demand for consumer goods as well. As unemployed pops and capis deprived of their dividends should be able to draw upon savings to maintain basic standard of living, the demand will stabilize over time with basic needs industries (like food) less affected by the crisis. At the same time contraption of the investment pool will drive capital employed down and the ROCE will recover. Meanwhile technology hopefully will present new investment opportunities and the cycle will repeat itself. The unemployment and negative investment pool in recession phase should of course generate social and political issues, leading to government crises and social upheavals.
The development of financial systems through society tech can create credit expansion modeled as a multiplier for the money pops contribute to or withdraw from the pool. This would give player more capital to develop economy, but concurrently will make cycles more pronounced
The ROCE mechanic would allow to simulate price of capital that can also be used for state borrowing mechanic and international financial market.
The player would have a range of options to deal with cycles:
Stimulating demand through public construction projects, armament programs or social welfare
Taxation changes
Subsidizing failing industries
Infusing treasury funds into investment pool to prevent financial distress (which shouldn’t count in capital employed)
Opening up new markets for goods and capital and as sources for raw materials
Removing the barriers to growth through infrastructure investments, professional education, immigration and such
Generating new investment opportunities through timely teching
The player of course can simply limit the new construction in the first phase of the cycle, limiting the growth in the short run, but keeping ROCE stable and thus smoothing the cycle avoiding the negatives of the recession, but this option should be limited to planned economies and maybe state capitalism, and so I’d be very much in favor of keeping a significant portion of investment activity outside of direct player control.
I think this or similar mechanic if implemented and explained well in the UI will give a lot for the player experience and gameplay choices.
 
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Negru Voda

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I like the idea, but I worry it might be tricky to deal with from a player’s and AI’s perspective.

I do expect they will model some of this, as I recall it was already a little present in V2.

I remember when a new type of product appeared, it’s limited supply made it attractive to produce as it would sell high (leading to good investment returns) - but as more of the product got produced it’s price might start to fall. Now only the businesses which were efficient enough would stick around, which meant some industries closed down and capitalists/landowners would start to lose income which reduced investment pools.
 

mikhail321

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I like the idea, but I worry it might be tricky to deal with from a player’s and AI’s perspective.

I do expect they will model some of this, as I recall it was already a little present in V2.

I remember when a new type of product appeared, it’s limited supply made it attractive to produce as it would sell high (leading to good investment returns) - but as more of the product got produced it’s price might start to fall. Now only the businesses which were efficient enough would stick around, which meant some industries closed down and capitalists/landowners would start to lose income which reduced investment pools.
The whole economy of Vic2 was one huge cycle with world economy mid game suffering from deflation, raw materials shortage and excessive urbanization, as AI was pretty much scripted to encourage craftsmen no matter what. So from 1870s (or around the time China industrialized) world GDP per capita usually stagnated. Hope Vic3 can do better than that.
 

dunka2

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The whole economy of Vic2 was one huge cycle with world economy mid game suffering from deflation, raw materials shortage and excessive urbanization, as AI was pretty much scripted to encourage craftsmen no matter what. So from 1870s (or around the time China industrialized) world GDP per capita usually stagnated. Hope Vic3 can do better than that.
The existence of subsistence farmers should help limit this, especially with larger and less advanced countries. Also now that national foci are gone and we have authority in its place, most countries will find it hard to encourage craftsmen and their analogues as they'll lack the authority to do it (since it seems like encouraging a type of pop will done via decree). Instead, a country will need to encourage education and urbanisation to unlock the potential of its population.
 

ikki

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those socalled economic cycles like the great depression etc were engineered events to have banks take over indebted farms. Or in the case of the great depression engineered between demand german shutdown and godman-sachs bitcoin like valueless investment objects they kept raising by buying it back until it was dumped and allowed to reach its natural value of zero. Triggering massive forced sells due to leverage and due to denying loans only banks have money and can buy at millenes to the pound.

So in short the less you can keep banks under control the more sheanigans they will pull on moneysupply and with investment frauds seeking to ruin everyone else. Until eventually they own the entire economy and everyone else is their little thrall. Like usa today. Industrial knowhow and production wiped out in the process. A dark age style situation.

The natural minicycles are downright mild and even then hit only a single part of the economy at a time. Sure if you go all in on coffee yeah your economy will have issued. But a diversified one with tight regulation, their own currency and social buffers should never have any problems from natural business cycles. Engineered ones from abroad can still crash exports ofcourse. So might want to keep that part controlled and consume internally.
 
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Utik

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those socalled economic cycles like the great depression etc were engineered events to have banks take over indebted farms. Or in the case of the great depression engineered between demand german shutdown and godman-sachs bitcoin like valueless investment objects they kept raising by buying it back until it was dumped and allowed to reach its natural value of zero. Triggering massive forced sells due to leverage and due to denying loans only banks have money and can buy at millenes to the pound.

So in short the less you can keep banks under control the more sheanigans they will pull on moneysupply and with investment frauds seeking to ruin everyone else. Until eventually they own the entire economy and everyone else is their little thrall. Like usa today. Industrial knowhow and production wiped out in the process. A dark age style situation.

The natural minicycles are downright mild and even then hit only a single part of the economy at a time. Sure if you go all in on coffee yeah your economy will have issued. But a diversified one with tight regulation, their own currency and social buffers should never have any problems from natural business cycles. Engineered ones from abroad can still crash exports ofcourse. So might want to keep that part controlled and consume internally.
...citation needed?
 
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ikki

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...citation needed?
"You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out." Andrew Jackson
Followed immediately by retaliation, calling back loans and limiting money supply etc. Oh yes and a assassination attempt.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2009/06/is-goldman-sachs-the-root-of-all-evil/20210/ something quickly summoned up by google. And no i dint recall what those holding company like financial papers (that actually held pretty much nothing) were exactly called goldman sachs was peddling in a classical pump and dump scheme.

There is a ton more.
But frankly its just the way it is in the rotten world, understanding it allows one to profit from it.
 

dunka2

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"You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out." Andrew Jackson
Followed immediately by retaliation, calling back loans and limiting money supply etc. Oh yes and a assassination attempt.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2009/06/is-goldman-sachs-the-root-of-all-evil/20210/ something quickly summoned up by google. And no i dint recall what those holding company like financial papers (that actually held pretty much nothing) were exactly called goldman sachs was peddling in a classical pump and dump scheme.

There is a ton more.
But frankly its just the way it is in the rotten world, understanding it allows one to profit from it.
Considering banks were the first to collapse and the cause of the crisis was a lending liquidity crunch... I think it odd to say that the Great Depression was a series of 'engineered events to have banks take over indebted farms'. Not to mention that the farms collapsed due to environmental collapse brought on by unsustainable farming practices in semi-arid regions resulting in the dust bowls. I don't think we can give Goldman Sachs credit for the quality of soil and the weather in the West.
 
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And yes the game will work with surplus value theory. All computer games that revolve around economics do that. This is simply because you have to give the actors more or less fixed needs in order to make a game possible. The cost of certain steps in a game must also fluctuate around a more or less fixed value. In reality, it can be said that the added value cannot be calculated. A game environment that revolves around economic processes must, however, set a fixed value in order to function.