How does this division sound

[Biggus Dickus]

Hey everyone, I am very new to Hoi3 and I have been playing as Germany from 1936 and developing a ton of divisions. one division idea I've seen that looks ok in theory to make up the majority of my army along with standard armored divisions (I haven't had any fighting yet) is

infantry
infantry
antitank
artillery

They all have 4 speed, use no fuel, have a fairly high soft attack with slightly lower hard attack. one thing I noticed about antitank is that they have a toughness of 0, what will this do to me on the offensive?

oh and is the combined arms bonus worth the fuel used to combine armored and standard infantry?

Thanks for any replies

 

[Raventhefuhrer]

That would be a great division for outnumbering the enemy, as it has a high amount of firepower for a comparatively small amount of 'frontage'. This means that with your current configuration, you could fit say five divisions in one battle (with five artillery and five anti tank guns supporting them) as opposed to a x3 Inf x1 Artillery where you'd only be able to fit three divisions, (with 3 artillery supporting). Probably good against France, but not so good against the Soviet Union where a wider front might necessitate you spreading your forces thinner, meaning a division won't go as far.

If you use that composition make sure you're fighting with five divisions per province, and thus overwhelming an enemy with brute force.

 

[Dreezzzzz]

That is a very common used division composition.
You should check the Wiki, has a lot of useful information. http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Main_Page

A combat arms bonus gives you a 30% attack / defend modifier so yes it is definitely worth it.
At the moment the toughness / defensiveness is not working correctly. Whatever toughness value your division has it will always get hit.

 

[unmerged(3221)]

You don't need AT in the game against the AI. Either 2 inf + 2 arty with 5 div per Corps or 3 inf + arty with 4 div per Corps.

You definitely want to use Combined Arms divisions in the game: look at the softness teddy bear in the build division screen to see if that divisional setup qualifies as CA. CA starts at 20% for the division, adds 10% for a Panzer trait commander at divisional level, and adds another 10% with a land doctrine tech. Plus you can get a little more from higher HQ that are in range which have Pz trait commanders.

 

[Raventhefuhrer]

I hadn't played in awhile until Dies Irae came out, so I've forgotten but how can I tell if a division has a Combined Arms bonus? I just vaguely know that it has something to do with grouping soft units with hard units but is there some sort of 'range' that gives you combined arms? (say, between 40 and 60% softness for the entire division?) Or what exactly goes into deciding what's combined arms?

Edit: To make clarify, I can tell when a division has combined arms, once it's made and deployed (it has a little white icon when you pull up its menu), but how can I tell when I'm assembling a division in the production screen whether or not it'll have a combined arms bonus for sure?

 

[Sirveri]

infantry
infantry
antitank
artillery

You should seriously avoid using this unit for offensive ops. AT has SEVERE attack penalties, and ART also has penalties to the attack. AT has a 40% attack penalty in ALL terrain at a minimum (it's worse in mountains, jungle, etc...), except urban (where it is only 35%). Art has a 10% attack penalty in all terrain at a minimum except urban (which has no penalty).

3xinf 1xart is a usefull and acceptable attacking division, it can be used on offense without massive penalties, and is quite good on the defense once it takes the position. Like others have said, AT is best used when you know you'll be facing armor. I would add that it is usefull for fixed positions, and that if you want any mobility you'll build TD and use that for mobile defense and assaulting armored divisions.

 

[alex0809]

Does That mean 2 x Inf 1 x SPART 1 x TD is a more effective division for offensive actions and 2 x Inf 1 x Art 1 x AT for defensive actions?

 

[Umpa Lumpa]

2x inf 1xspart 1xtd across your entire army will use an awful lot of fuel and the high speed of the spart and td will be wasted on the slow infantry. Personally I go with 2xinf 2xart. You can still cram 5 divisions into a single province and you dont really meet enough tanks when playing as Germany to justify an AT or TD in every division. Any you do meet can be handled by your tanks.

Edit: To make clarify, I can tell when a division has combined arms, once it's made and deployed (it has a little white icon when you pull up its menu), but how can I tell when I'm assembling a division in the production screen whether or not it'll have a combined arms bonus for sure?

On the build screen there will be a little picture of a teddy bear representing % softness. Keep that number between 33% and 66% and you will get the cominded arms bonus.

 

[alex0809]

Then as an ARMOR division, is something like 2 x MedArm 2 x SPART viable? It should give the combined arms bonus right?

 

[Sirveri]

Does That mean 2 x Inf 1 x SPART 1 x TD is a more effective division for offensive actions and 2 x Inf 1 x Art 1 x AT for defensive actions?

For defense, the original is fine. For offense, TD gives -10% on attack in every terrain at a minimum, and since both those support units are mechanized they're best combined with motorized, mechanized, and armor units to take advantage of the speed bonus (you should aim for combined arms as well). Since the attack penalty is diluted and averaged over the entire division, a 10% brigade penalty isn't very serious if you use four or five slots in that division.

You can look up base specs for ALL units as they are stored as text files located at (C:\Program Files\Paradox Interactive\Hearts of Iron III\units) in a normal install. You can also change all the values there too if you want to mod something. This should enable you to determine your precise penalties in all scenarios.

 

[Biggus Dickus]

ok so then would using a division of

infantry
infantry
heavy armour
artillery

be ok since the HA speed is 5 and going at only 4 isn't a huge loss and it would give the combined arms bonus and not be too crazy on gas for a division since only the 1 brigade uses gas?

 

[Raventhefuhrer]

Well, that'll be an expensive (and time consuming) division to build, for your 'infantry of the line'. Plus it takes awhile to get ahold of the heavy armor tech. Really, for your main composition it's best to do something more basic (even just x3 infantry) and have that make up 50% of your forces, with the rest going to armored and motorized divisions, special forces, and then the more 'designer' infantry divisions, like your x2 Infantry, x1 HA, x1 Art.

At least that's my experience.

 

[Corelli]

I tend to make 5 types of front line infantry divisions:

3xINF+1 ART (to handle broader areas)
3xINF+1 ENG (to help with river crossings, taking non critical fortresses/urban hexes)
2xINF+2 ART (for concentrated attacks to save frontage)
2xINF+2 ENG (tough river crossings and critical urban fights, I tend to group 3-5 of these divisions together to make a fortress buster corps)
2xINF+1 ART+1AT (I toss 1 or 2 of these in each corps in central/southern Russia to help against any CA attacks)

Generally I group each corps and keep it in one axis of advance according to what it will face. If there are more rivers to cross I put in some divisions with ENG and ENG leaders. If I know there will be lot of concentrated fighting I have 4 2+2 divisions with 1 3+1 division to move forward/protect the flank

I never attach any armor to infantry divisions and have never built any heavy armor.

For my armor divisions I create 3 types:

Breakthrough: 2 MED ARM+1 MOT INF+1 SP ART
Exploit: 2 LT ARM+1 MOT INF+1 RECON (I forget their real designation)
Motorized: 2 MOT INF+2 TD

I punch a hole with the breakthrough and advance quickly with the exploit/motorized. The exploit divisions are pretty tough themselves so I never worry they can't attack/defend. I make my Armor Corps with 5 divisions (for Russia):

2 Breakthrough
1 Exploit
2 Motorized/Mech


I don't claim to know the "best" make up for divisions, or what saves the most oil or crunch the numbers to the last decimal point, I just know these give a nice, semi historical, non cookie cutter flair to my armies. So experiment and have fun playing around with different division make ups.

 

[unmerged(181758)]

A division of

INF
INF
AT
ART

sounds defensive, and I swear I can hear the troops referring to themselves as last ditch clap trap biatch 'brigades' and moaning about being most likely to be 'clapped' or also only useful for catching the clap or some such STD, but not much besides. Um, you did ask how it sounds didn't you?

But seriously, it is an OK defensive division structure if you use them in stacks and against CA or Armoured enemies. They are not completely useless but you would need to use them combined, because they would not stand up well alone even against a 3x INF vanilla division. As has been said AT is penalised really heavily on the attack so you'd not want to use them offensively. However for that 2x INF & 2x TD is the better although the most preferred option is 2x MOT & 2x TD I've read a lot around here.

Corelli has some good basic designs and his advice is good to follow in general terms, however I only attach ENG brigades with Marines or MOT for the purpose of River assaulting and fort/urban storming. Personally I would rather chuck another ART into an INF Div than an AT bgd and use my ARM, TDs and TAC/CAS bombers against the enemy than build any AT units at all.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Then as an ARMOR division, is something like 2 x MedArm 2 x SPART viable? It should give the combined arms bonus right?

That is indeed a very powerful armor division with an incredible firepower per combat width. Almost no defences will stand against 6 off those in the battle once you have spearhead doctrine researched.

And yes it will get combined arms bonus with 45% softness.

 

[silenced]

You could also think about Inf Inf RArt RArt (RArt) ... though it got some drawbacks aswell.

 

[unmerged(3221)]

ok so then would using a division of

infantry
infantry
heavy armour
artillery

be ok since the HA speed is 5 and going at only 4 isn't a huge loss and it would give the combined arms bonus and not be too crazy on gas for a division since only the 1 brigade uses gas?

Do not build or design defensive divisions. They are not worth it except in exceptional situations, and even then 3 inf + arty are almost as good.

Extra defense is almost worthless in the game:
1] As designed, extra defense is only used when you are overwhelmed while extra offensive is always used.
2] Due to a bug, extra defense is not used in the game. Even when you are overwhelmed, the extra losses are less than 1% more.

Instead of researching heavy armor's 4 more techs, put that leadership elsewhere. If you really feel the need to defend something, build a combined arms division instead. Armor + motor has a lot of combat troops and qualifies for the CA bonus: build them instead. Or armor + infantry if you have a static defense instead of a mobile defense.

 

[unmerged(181758)]

ok so then would using a division of

infantry
infantry
heavy armour
artillery

[be ok since the HA speed is 5 and going at only 4 isn't a huge loss and it would give the combined arms bonus and not be too crazy on gas for a division since only the 1 brigade uses gas?]

Do not build or design defensive divisions. They are not worth it except in exceptional situations, and even then 3 inf + arty are almost as good.

Extra defense is almost worthless in the game:
1] As designed, extra defense is only used when you are overwhelmed while extra offensive is always used.
2] Due to a bug, extra defense is not used in the game. Even when you are overwhelmed, the extra losses are less than 1% more.

Instead of researching heavy armor's 4 more techs, put that leadership elsewhere. If you really feel the need to defend something, build a combined arms division instead. Armor + motor has a lot of combat troops and qualifies for the CA bonus: build them instead. Or armor + infantry if you have a static defense instead of a mobile defense.

I agree that HA is not worth the Leadership investment even as a major, although people do combine them with INF but usually try to get the CA bonus for the few they build and place them in strategic Provinces they really want to hold. They are good "Defensive" Divisions especially with an ENG included for the extra terrain bonus it provides.

A player can't build too many of them and Medium Armour is faster and more effective overall anyway. Still I reckon most players wouldn't want to face attacking a heavy defensive division in a River with difficult terrain Province consisting of 2 HA + 2 INF + 1 ENG.

I'm not sure I follow John's mathematics here but as always the best form of defense is to attack!

You could also think about Inf Inf RArt RArt (RArt) ... though it got some drawbacks aswell.

Um, ART is better than RART in terms of firepower (until very late in game when the fighting should be over) defensiveness and toughness for durability while attacking. While RART is cheaper and quicker to build it sucks up about 50% as much supplies so in the long run it will cost more aside from the logistical problems it creates.

As you said RART has its drawbacks. Its most redeeming feature it that it is faster but the slightly faster specialist units (MAR, MTN, PARA) are not good to combine with for their roles. [May be only CAV and HA, but why would you have those units anyway? A major could build HA and RART, but it's not really cost effective, while a minor probably couldn't afford to maintain RART with their CAV.]

 

[Battlecry]

Also you should have a look at the differing terrain effects for art/r-art and sp-art/sp-r-art - they're a little odd I think. Depending on where you'll be fighting, these could have a significant effect. The supply need alone makes r-art less effective in low-infra areas.

 

[Panncakemouse]

If you are playing as Germany I agree with those who think it is a bit to defensive. If playing as France it is a great division to stop the German ainitial attack. Still you might consider to use thre div INF+INF+ART+ART and two INF+INF+AT+AT in each province just to have something to counterattack with.

As Germany INF+INF+ART (or INF+INF+ART+ART) is something worth considering on the eastern front.