How does temperature change in this game?

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bitmode

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https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Weather

Any idea when a temperature modifier appears in the province. Is it all-year round or based on months? Like in December, the provinces in Moscow will experience very cold.

I know ground conditions (like mud or snow) are affected by rain (state-level) and temperature.
Each strategic region has probabilities of weather conditions and temperature ranges set up for each calendar month. For example Moscow belongs to Central Russia (ID 133), so in December it has -17 to -3 degrees. The exact effects in each individual province are randomly generated from those ranges and the time of day. You can look them up in the game files, common/map/strategicregions.

Edit: and the weather effects shown like "extreme cold" etc. are produced based on this weather. I.e. "extreme cold" is anything below -25 or mud is generated based on temperature and accumulated rainfall. Those are defined in common/weather.txt.
 
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Thanks! Given how much back-stage effort they put into simulating the weather (like how mud is actually created based on logging of rainfall and temperature -- like a science experiment!), it is weird that they don't have an complex UI to let us know when a region is going to snow or mud. There should be something like the terrain map mode except with different kinds of details (Central Russia is currently snowing heavily -- temperature is -15 degree). It will be also helpful for weather forecast (navy and air operations) as well as preparing for bad ground operations (Rasputitsa is coming! Let's dig in). There is just a general lack of seasonal or weather awareness when i played my game because I attacked blindly unless I checked the tile. Not that i am complaining since it is our duty to manually check the weather ourselves, but if they already have a terrain map mode, why not weather (especially given how much more complicated its mechanism seems to be).


Edit: maybe weather is not as important in carrying out missions as I previously thought. People in the past probably checked the weather only if they were doing badly?
 

SophieX

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Edit: maybe weather is not as important in carrying out missions as I previously thought. ....

For any air mission weather is the most important factor ;)

For naval missions seastate fog and wind plays a vital role.

For land-mission rain, fog and extreme low or high temperature have a great impact ( consider that after a long rain period you will get mud-terrain, slowing down your troops).
 
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For any air mission weather is the most important factor ;)

For naval missions seastate fog and wind plays a vital role.

For land-mission rain, fog and extreme low or high temperature have a great impact ( consider that after a long rain period you will get mud-terrain, slowing down your troops).

Okay, thanks. :) I now realize how weather plays a role in war planning. Usually when you are on an offensive (major one), then weather planning is very important. Because you are the one having an initiative and can afford to wait for the right time. For example, if I am planning for the final blitz on Moscow, it will be good to wait for all my tanks to regain organisation because of the current muddy season. This applies the same for counteroffensive. On the other hand, when you are on the defensive, it doesn't matter whether it is rain or shine (edited). You have to stay in the position as long as you are told to do so.
 
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Edit: Every offensive operation, especially major one, requires a certain set-up time (or what I call, grace period) because soldiers cannot keep fighting without waiting for restock or refuel. Sure, if the vanguard divisions have the sufficient organization and combat strength, you can keep pushing them forward without resting. However, the combat efficiency may drop rapidly if you did not allow time for them to rest. What I mean by that is sometimes, you need to pause and consolidate your lines so that they will not be stretched too thin, making you vulnerable to aggressive counterattacks (happened to my current Japanese campaign even though I was raping the US). And this is when weather factor comes into play. You can take advantage of current weather conditions (mud, rain) to pause your offensive or plan new ones, as the enemy is also slowed down. So when your offensive resumes or renews in a different format, your vanguard troops not only have max organization and combat strength to push forward, they can also beat back the enemy reserves newly brought out (happened frequently if you are advancing deep into vast interior with massive manpower pool).

Historically speaking, this happened to both the Germans and Soviets at the aftermath of Stalingrad. The Soviets had both the strategic and operational initiative, and were exploiting the gaps aggressively (Operation Little Saturn). Little did they know, the Germans used the withdrawn troops from Caucasus as reserves, refitted them to counter-assault their vanguard divisions (low on fuel, organization and ammunition, despite having the combat strength). This caused the Soviets to withdraw from the Kharkov area, and the operational initiative (not strategic, I would argue) swung back to the Germans. The Germans recaptured Kharkov, but couldn't push on into Kursk due to exhaustion (not from weather, but fierce fighting). This was when both sides used the current rasputitsa as an intermission period for their next action -- Operation Citadel. So bad weather condition does not prevent you at all from taking action (Edit: it merely slows your action down); it is used as an excuse to rest and refit your troops (in war, one should not stop their troops, unless they are on defensive stance). Just like how General Winter/ General Mud is used as an justification for German's defeat in front of Moscow - it is not, as the Germans were planning to use the time to consolidate their lines (Edit: they were low on organisation and combat strength due to continuous fighting, nothing to do with winter) for final push after winter (edited). Also another edit: the Germans only reverted to defensive stance due to unexpected counterattacks by healthy Soviet reserves (at a rate of 2:1), not because of winter.
 
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Fulmen

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Each strategic region has probabilities of weather conditions and temperature ranges set up for each calendar month. For example Moscow belongs to Central Russia (ID 133), so in December it has -17 to -3 degrees. The exact effects in each individual province are randomly generated from those ranges and the time of day. You can look them up in the game files, common/map/strategicregions.

Judging by the figures I've seen on the HoI4 map, it looks like they just copy-pasted the values from HoI3. Values which are more like early 2000s temperatures, rather than something from the 1930s-40s. This is particularly noticeable with winters in places like Finland and Russia. They never fixed that, so here, 11 years later, the issue still persists.
 

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But you do see blizzards, sandstorms and other extreme weather and ground conditions on the map, so I think that's good enough?
Same for das/night, which also affects combat a lot.
 

Ffire

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Edit: Every offensive operation, especially major one, requires a certain set-up time (or what I call, grace period) because soldiers cannot keep fighting without waiting for restock or refuel. Sure, if the vanguard divisions have the sufficient organization and combat strength, you can keep pushing them forward without resting. However, the combat efficiency may drop rapidly if you did not allow time for them to rest. What I mean by that is sometimes, you need to pause and consolidate your lines so that they will not be stretched too thin, making you vulnerable to aggressive counterattacks (happened to my current Japanese campaign even though I was raping the US). And this is when weather factor comes into play. You can take advantage of current weather conditions (mud, rain) to pause your offensive or plan new ones, as the enemy is also slowed down. So when your offensive resumes or renews in a different format, your vanguard troops not only have max organization and combat strength to push forward, they can also beat back the enemy reserves newly brought out (happened frequently if you are advancing deep into vast interior with massive manpower pool).

Historically speaking, this happened to both the Germans and Soviets at the aftermath of Stalingrad. The Soviets had both the strategic and operational initiative, and were exploiting the gaps aggressively (Operation Little Saturn). Little did they know, the Germans used the withdrawn troops from Caucasus as reserves, refitted them to counter-assault their vanguard divisions (low on fuel, organization and ammunition, despite having the combat strength). This caused the Soviets to withdraw from the Kharkov area, and the operational initiative (not strategic, I would argue) swung back to the Germans. The Germans recaptured Kharkov, but couldn't push on into Kursk due to exhaustion (not from weather, but fierce fighting). This was when both sides used the current rasputitsa as an intermission period for their next action -- Operation Citadel. So bad weather condition does not prevent you at all from taking action (Edit: it merely slows your action down); it is used as an excuse to rest and refit your troops (in war, one should not stop their troops, unless they are on defensive stance). Just like how General Winter/ General Mud is used as an justification for German's defeat in front of Moscow - it is not, as the Germans were planning to use the time to consolidate their lines (Edit: they were low on organisation and combat strength due to continuous fighting, nothing to do with winter) for final push after winter (edited). Also another edit: the Germans only reverted to defensive stance due to unexpected counterattacks by healthy Soviet reserves (at a rate of 2:1), not because of winter.

I can't fully agree with that. Yes weather and mud were used as one justification for some mistakes, but they still were a real pain. The fact is, both army suffer from them, so you can figure they should not really advantage one side. In fact, mud (which causes more trouble than cold) always help more the defender, who can rally reserves throughs roads, rather than the attacker, who advance off road or through combat damaged areas.

The fun fact with german memorialist is that they always complained about the mud when they attacked (years 41-43), and stop talking about that the next years.
 
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I can't fully agree with that. Yes weather and mud were used as one justification for some mistakes, but they still were a real pain. The fact is, both army suffer from them, so you can figure they should not really advantage one side. In fact, mud (which causes more trouble than cold) always help more the defender, who can rally reserves throughs roads, rather than the attacker, who advance off road or through combat damaged areas.

The fun fact with german memorialist is that they always complained about the mud when they attacked (years 41-43), and stop talking about that the next years.

Basically, this plays into controversies on whether General Winter plays a huge role in German's defeat.. Given the speed of German advance, it is possible that Germans had lost more to winter rather than combat. Also, the Soviets suffers less from weather because they were closer to their bases and were better prepared. Hence, there is a possibility that weather, as a luck factor, helps to tip the scale for Soviets as both sides were roughly equal in strength. The Germans were overconfident and never expected such bad luck (severe winter, mud). But this is the reason why the Battle of Moscow was so close. Either side could have won -- if the Germans arrived earlier before winter or the Soviets failed to bring their reserves in time.
 

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I don't know what this discussion is talking about? Yes in reality weather had dramatic effects on combat.

In the game it only has effects on air and naval missions. It doesn't have much effect on land combat at all. Why? Because weather, night, temperature, etc. all affect the attacker and the defender exactly the same way. So what bad conditions do in this game is it slows down a battle but it does nothing to change the outcome. Therefore you can literally ignore all deleterious weather, night, and temperature effects on land combat because it doesn't change anything. If you are an attacker you just keep attacking through it all, because even when you are slowed down in battle it is better to keep attacking than to wait for better conditions.

I hope they fix this.
 
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I don't know what this discussion is talking about? Yes in reality weather had dramatic effects on combat.

In the game it only has effects on air and naval missions. It doesn't have much effect on land combat at all. Why? Because weather, night, temperature, etc. all affect the attacker and the defender exactly the same way. So what bad conditions do in this game is it slows down a battle but it does nothing to change the outcome. Therefore you can literally ignore all deleterious weather, night, and temperature effects on land combat because it doesn't change anything. If you are an attacker you just keep attacking through it all, because even when you are slowed down in battle it is better to keep attacking than to wait for better conditions.

I hope they fix this.

Yeah, so far, I don't feel any effect from bad conditions. :( Do you think historically, General Winter plays a role in German's defeat? That if Germans actually attacked way earlier??
 

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Yeah, so far, I don't feel any effect from bad conditions. :( Do you think historically, General Winter plays a role in German's defeat? That if Germans actually attacked way earlier??

The battle of Moscow wasn't a close call, german never had a chance to win that one, even if some of their recco units managed to advance at 30-40km. They were overstreched and their units had lost combat capacity. Their logistical support wasn't capable to bring enough reinforcment (ammo and fuel). Battalion counted 60men rather than 400 before the start of the push.
To sustain the operation, huge amount of ammo and fuel were the logistical priorities, winter equipments (they were ready) could never reached frontline. So germans suffered many casualties from frost.
Soviet didn't have many units fully equiped with winter clothes and suffered a lot too. But tremendous casualties was something they didn't care about as much as the germans at that moment. They were still capable to reinforce their units.

In game, units suffer combat penalties and more attrition in extreme temperature conditions ; that's accurate. The difference is the way logistics is represented in game : units have a logistical weight that is fixed and constant, depending of units composition, not how much the logistical chain is stressed during one particular moment. The logistical charge should vary when the units needs reinforcment. Also infrastructure logistical capabilities should vary over winter conditions ; with low infrastructured zones more sensitives to that effect. But I think our computers couldn't handle so much datas. Maybe for HOI5...
 

bitmode

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and it should matter. A lot.
For that to happen the AI would need to have at least some grasp of weather. As far as I know, right now it does not consider weather at all, never mind to an extent that would allow proper reactions in extreme weather conditions. Given the frequency and severity, mud is currently maybe the worst weather condition and the AI has no way to deal with it.
 

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The mud in September that slowed the German advance to Moscow and the resulting loss in equipment was more of a factor in the failure to capture Moscow as far as weather goes. By the time the extreme cold weather came Moscow would have held anyway because of the reinforcements the Russian were able to bring in.

If Germany had taken Moscow or even surrounded it in late summer before turning south to the Ukraine the Russians would have been put in a very bad spot. If you know anything about the Russian rail and road system in 1941 all rail lines and the best roads were built like a wheel with spokes and all spokes led to Moscow. There were very few rail or even decent road lines between the spokes. Had the Germans taken control of this system around Moscow, the Russians would have had a logistical nightmare on their hands for moving men and materials to where they were needed.

I don't know if Germany ever could have conquered Russia. I don't think they would have needed to. I do think they could have brought Russia to the table for negotiations had they captured Moscow and all of the Cuacus oil fields. Not acting like homicidal tyrants may have helped as well. Just my opinion from 40 years of reading on the subject.

Needless to say, weather in the game is not much of a factor right now. I do not think the attrition is enough of a deterrent or has enough effect. I still hope it gets fixed. It will take a hell of a lot of rebalancing if it does get fixed. It will also require a toggle on the army screen for automatically halting offensive operations during adverse conditions. We would never be able to keep up with pausing operations during inclement weather, night, etc. manually.
 
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