• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(35)

Second Lieutenant
Jan 24, 2000
137
0
Visit site
I see that you invest into tech in order to gain it, but i got a question. Is the speed which the advance is discovered determined by the total amount of cash you put in each turn, or by what percentage of your income is devoted to that area of study. I was curious because if it was just total cash than a large yet backward state( like turkey, i know it was advanced during some of the game, but they had already begun to crumble by 1500 i believe) could gain an advantage over a smaller yet advanced state such as Venice.
 

unmerged(13)

Banned
Jan 12, 2000
2.125
0
Visit site
Is the speed which the advance is discovered determined by the total amount of cash you put in each turn, or by what percentage of your income is devoted to that area of study.


The amount of cash you 'invest' determines how quickly you gain a particular advance. There are 'sliders' which determine at what preference you want a particular technology, whether its to be shelved into obscurity or if perhaps you want the research for it to be at a maximum. Of course it all depends on your countries income. The richer the country is, and the more organized forms of taxation (promotion of bailiffs), the higher your income. There's lots of little bells and whistles, maybe Jiminov can expand on this in detail, as to how this works in the real world..


( like turkey, i know it was advanced during some of the game, but they had already begun to crumble by 1500 i believe) could gain an advantage over a smaller yet advanced state such as Venice.

Crumble enough to hold a good deal of central Europe by the balls until the 1680's eh? ;) Turkey, as a major power gets certain bonuses that maybe particulary specific to the country and the situation its in. Also, the sheer size of the country, speaking purely province wise in this game is staggering. High population, lots of room to develop, lots of room to expand into central Europe, the east and north africa.

Technology advances for minor nations have been slightly altered not too long ago, and this is a good change..It'll make both minors and majors react to each other much more realistically.

Sapura

[This message has been edited by Sapura (edited 14-08-2000).]
 

unmerged(212)

Captain
Jun 27, 2000
372
0
Visit site
Hack,

I'd love to add my two cents to this discussion, but since I haven't been able to play the game I don't know if I am really qualified to comment on how EU simulates taxation and technology development vis-a-vis the real world. However, it's not too often that a 'Sole Defender' invites me to post my thoughts on the matter, so here goes...

Based on my review of the AAR's and other forum discussions, it appears that there are a few critical technologies. On of these is related to trade, after a certain point you can gain monopolies at the CoT's which really enhance income generation. Again since I haven't played the game, I don't know how this advance is characterized, but it could have something to do with the emergence of the concept of a corporation, formal lending practices, or book-keeping or some other historical advance.

Outside of a the few key technologies most advances appear to provide relatively incremental improvements. However, if you look at a couple of AAR's where the player devoted significant spending to infrastructure, they appear to benefit from a veritable wealth of victory points as well as top-rate economies. In the Ottoman AAR, there was a 50 year lull in hostilities, which allowed the Turks to focus on heavy infrastructure development and colonization; this in turn generated significant wealth which was used to fund expansion into Italy which was capped by the conquest of Rome.

I hope this helps.
 

unmerged(28)

Game Designer
Jan 21, 2000
3.461
0
On the Ottoman Empire:

I also thought that the Ottomans was a technological backwards country until I started to specialize in the Middle East. Actually what Sap says is true. And even more... Russia broke the valiant necks of both Poland-Lithuania and Sweden long before they managed to hurt the Ottomans severely. Much of our present historical view of the Ottomans comes from the common historical view of the Age of Imperialism when every people that where not Europeans where considered worthless by definition. Fact is the Ottomans beat the russians in some battles as late as the 1730's and actually won the war against Austria gaining every province lost in 1719. :)

Allahu Akbar!!!

/Greven
 

unmerged(13)

Banned
Jan 12, 2000
2.125
0
Visit site
Greven,

In my opinion the Ottomans were never definitely 'technologically' backwards, until perhaps the start of the 18th century. The slow deteriation of their military capability mirrored that of Poland-Lithuania. The Ottomans held a huge advantage of their European counterparts pre 1500, in both training, organization and tactics. I believe the Ottomans had well trained soldiers perhaps 50+ years before any sort of significant effort was made on the part of the Europeans to maintain standing, trained and specialized armies. The Spanish were first in organizing such armies in the early 16th century, the Poles followed very soon around 1535 with their 'potoczna' armies, on constand standing ready to parry any sort of raids or moves by the Tartars in southern Poland. There are several reasons why many historians believe the Ottomans were technologically backwards for much of this time, which is rather incorrect. They soon adoped the very newest military practices and tactics. In reality the Ottomans suffered a general, but slow decline in their forces from the 1680's onwards. They had been defeated in Europe and by 1699 a treaty was signed. Through general lack of willingness (and possibly internal problems, Greven?) to learn new technologies quickly enough, they were 'defaulted' just like the Poles, after Sobieski. The explanations / reasons for their updated theories are


a) Europe encountered a huge explosion of almost non stop warfare from the 17th century especially. Armies became larger, more organized, better trained with better equipment. Hence they were able to tackle the Ottoman armies on a much more even footing.

b) Most of the European countries the Ottomans thought pre 1683 were countries that are still thought as being technologically backwards: Poland, Hungary and so on. Historians found out that the Poles / Hungarians did rather well against them, which would mean that the Ottomans would be regarded as being even more backwards, if the eastern Europeans could defeat them.

c) The general theory, still held by many historians that eastern Europe was technologically backwards when it came to advancements in military technologically. This is especially true in the case of Poland and Hungary. Another incorrect theory.


d) The theory that the Ottoman armies lacked firepower, is also incorrect. Their artillery was extremely potent, and they had a large trained force of infantry (janczary), schooled in the newest forms of such warfare.


Sapura
 

unmerged(28)

Game Designer
Jan 21, 2000
3.461
0
Through general lack of willingness (and possibly internal problems, Greven?)
-------------------------------------
I would say both. The main problem in the Ottoman empire was the social fabric of the people. The country's political system was a mishmash of the Roman Imperial tradition together with the old turkish-mongol and arab clan system. In every province there were two leader with different types of powers and privileges; the imperial governor and the leader of the mightiest clan federation. This made it hard for the Ottomans to create efficiency in their organisation; both the military and the governmental. To this one should add that the Ottomans relived hell through waves of infectious uprisings that would even make the polish deluge look like a childs game (not implying that the deluge wasn't an horrible and disastrous event for Poland-Lithuania :)).

/Greven
 
Jan 26, 2000
4.640
2
perso.club-internet.fr
Originally posted by Kevin:
Quick question: Are research advances inevitable (as per Civilization: Spend X and get Tech Y) or does spending only increase your chance of receiving a given advance in a turn?


Not really, in fact you can spend 200 gold for 100 Technology Points one time for each technology (land, naval, trade or else) in one month if I remember (or one time per technology level).

But 100 TP is really little compared to the cost of one technology level...

For example :
Land technology 2 : cost 1200 points
Naval technology 2 : cost 1800 points


------------------
Si vis pacem, para bellum



[This message has been edited by JP (edited 16-08-2000).]
 

unmerged(28)

Game Designer
Jan 21, 2000
3.461
0
Originally posted by Matthew Wallhead:
The religious leaders of Turkey banned the printing press because they feared the unrest it might cause.

That's my four-penneth!
Well, the religious leaders of Western Europe banned the crossbow. In neither case it was much followed. ;)

/Greven
 

Marcus

Over the top, gentlemen!
28 Badges
Jun 19, 2000
1.889
44
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Pride of Nations
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Rise of Prussia
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
Actually, the crossbow made such horrific wounds that it was banned by the church for use against your fellow Christians. It was perfectly allright to use it against infidels like Turks and the like.

This decision was made by the church just about the time when the pope read the bible again and decided that Christ had been misquoted. The true meaning of thou shalt not kill was, of course, thou shalt not kill thy fellow Christian.

The church was just making sure nobody got bothered by a bad consience during the crusades.
 

unmerged(164)

First Lieutenant
May 4, 2000
224
0
Amazing the Church banned the use of the Crossbow. They don't teach that in the U.S. Absolutely amazing.....least there was a good reason for doing and not some lame one like 'we do not want an implement of destruction used that carries a religious refence (Cross-Bow).
 

pcongre

leyendo sin postear dsd 08/00
8 Badges
Aug 3, 2000
191
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
'Amazing the Church banned the use of the Crossbow. They don't teach that in the U.S.'

heh, not in catholic states either..
 

Sidney

Texan by Choice
22 Badges
Jun 20, 2000
1.602
0
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
Originally posted by Dragon:
Amazing the Church banned the use of the Crossbow. They don't teach that in the U.S. Absolutely amazing.....least there was a good reason for doing and not some lame one like 'we do not want an implement of destruction used that carries a religious refence (Cross-Bow).

The Church couldn't have peasants whacking good Christian Knights with those crossbows. A lot of suits of plate mail have a dent in them near the heart area because a standard test of a suit of armor was to fire a crossbow at it from a certain range and if it didn't go through the armor was good. I'm pretty sure the blacksmiths fudged a few of these tests though ;)
 

unmerged(213)

Corporal
Jun 27, 2000
26
0
Visit site
{I hope I’m not treading on toes to use graphics in posts. I haven’t seen much but smilies. But, the FAQ says we can so I'm going to give it a shot and see if it works. I’m kind of new to this graphics stuff.}

First. Kind of a restatement summary with a question: In the game, technology levels are slow to research for most countries. There seem to be two factors: 1) the economy probably will limit how much one can invest in research; 2) the maximum per turn investment is 100 and areas like land warfare 2 cost 1200. Did I understand this correctly about research in the game?

Actually, the crossbow made such horrific wounds that it was banned by the church for use against your fellow Christians. It was perfectly all right to use it against infidels like Turks and the like.

ff77c347.gif.orig.gif
(I’m not sure you’ll be able to see the arrow through the head of the smilie, it’s black like the forum background.)

Second, the church banned the crossbow in warfare between Catholic countries. How effective was this ban, actually? It seems unlikely it could have been too effective. Let me put this weapon into the hands of my troops, but only use it when fighting against heretics or infidels?

ff77c6bc.gif.orig.gif

The Russians were Orthodox, not Roman Catholic and they wouldn't listen to a Roman Pope. Martin Luther was born just before the game starts and by 1650 Europe was a hodgepodge of christian religions as the map shows. Hard to believe protestants in the heat of the Reformation would listen to the Pope. At the battle of Crecy, His most Catholic French Majesty used crossbows against his fellow Catholics. I know this was before the game begins, but when did the Catholic Church ban crossbows? Whether it was before or after the Reformation, I really can’t see the ban being effective at all. But, I don't know and I'd like to. Were there any Catholic vs. Catholic battles during the game's timeframe where crossbows weren't used?

JeffM

ff783fe5.gif.orig.gif
 

unmerged(28)

Game Designer
Jan 21, 2000
3.461
0
Hmmm.... Well the Latern Councile decided to outlaw the crossbow, but this was in the 1160's. However I only used it as an example of unrealistic political measures. It was never followed.

/Greven
 

unmerged(213)

Corporal
Jun 27, 2000
26
0
Visit site
Bye the bye, this was what the smilie was supposed to look like. Fitting for a discussion on Crossbows but I flubbed the script.

ff77c347.gif.orig.gif


JeffM

------------------
ff783fe5.gif.orig.gif
 

unmerged(181)

First Lieutenant
May 28, 2000
280
0
Visit site
Was the crossbow used during the 1492-1792 period? When did it become obsolete?

Of course, the nobles did not like crossbows one bit. How dare those lowly peasants be able to harm our noble bodies. They also did not like archers, pikemen or musketeers for the same reason.