But then similarly, significant manpower increase due to boys reaching military age is also unlikely.
how does population (not manpower!!!) of a state change over time?
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I'm not sure many countries particularly in Europe would of had any population increase. Belarus for instance lost 25% of it's total population during WW2.
Russia 15%
China 5%
Poland 15%
These are rough figures but given the lower breeding rate due to men being away from home and people dieing at faster than normal rates it seems unlikely an increase would happen.
Russia 15%
China 5%
Poland 15%
These are rough figures but given the lower breeding rate due to men being away from home and people dieing at faster than normal rates it seems unlikely an increase would happen.
~550,000 annually in Germany during the war. About 2 million in USSR.
Okay... Pretty much the same amount would be true for population. This is a self-defeating argument. You have to be on one side or the other for both cases.
How does increasing the amount of infants matter in the context of a game spanning 12 years? Those born in 1936 will be 11 by the time game ends, and irrelevant to the "war effort" simulated by the game. How about the game developers simulate reduced performance of units that were in combat longer than 8 hours, due to fatigue and such? Or introduce diarrhea for European units fighting in India, due to numerous bacteria present there that Europeans are not accustomed to?
The Population Increase mechanic is irrelevant to this game, and thus ignored.
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I think we're missing the bigger point in terms of population dynamics during the war.
The US, Europe, China, and the USSR experienced extraordinary levels of internal migration, refugee movement/displacement, and immigration.
These did have an enormous impact on these nations all throughout the time period of the war (and shortly thereafter).. Based on what we've seen in the WWW streams, you could guess the "benefits" are captured in the industrialization policies. But the downsides are not...
The US, Europe, China, and the USSR experienced extraordinary levels of internal migration, refugee movement/displacement, and immigration.
These did have an enormous impact on these nations all throughout the time period of the war (and shortly thereafter).. Based on what we've seen in the WWW streams, you could guess the "benefits" are captured in the industrialization policies. But the downsides are not...
The total population is not a good indicator of military manpower. AND....all manpower is not created equal. There is a difference between a Royal Marines commando and a supply clerk. Almost anybody can fill out a supply form, but climbing that wall with 50 kgs on your back is a specialized skill that not everyone is up to. Also, things like the level of medical care and education in a country can mean the difference between someone who is capable of military service and someone who is not.
(completely ficticous) Example: ten years ago, I broke my leg. The local witch doctor did a rain dance to drive out the evil spirits and my leg eventually healed.....but at a 45 degree angle. My twin brother broke his leg on the same day and had surgery to implant a metal plate which held his leg together, and is now a (slow) marathon runner.
More to the point.....
Most of the European states involved in WW2 had significant combat (i.e. men/males) loses in WW1. This is most true of France (as a proportion of total population). In France, the result of the lack of men (i.e. fathers/breeding males) led to a shortage of males available for military service, called "The hollow years" (IIRC) starting in the early 30's. This was one of the contributing factors to France's decision to build the Maginot line. Other nations (including Germany and the successor states of the Russian Empire) also had this, but to a lesser degree. The issue with the question is that you could have some domestic policy to increase population enacted on 1 Jan 1936 (start of the game), but by 1945, the resulting "population increase" would be at best 8 years old. The only real way to increase numbers available to the military is to do one or more of the following:
1-lower physical standards so that those with minor (or maybe major) disabilities would then serve (Germany did this)
2-lower the age of recruitment (Germany did this)
3-include both genders in the military (Soviets did this more than anyone else, but the allied powers also did this to some extent-at least in non-combat roles)
4-draft foreigners into your military (Germany did this)
5-increase efficiency in your economy so that less manpower is required for production (pretty much everyone tried this, to varying degrees of success)
6-mobilize foreign workers for your economy to free up native manpower (Germany did this-pls don't use this to start a discussion on a banned subject)
7-include women (and maybe children) in the workforce (pretty much everyone did this except Germany, unless you count Germany's doing ++++++ (a banned subject))
8-decrease the manning level/size of your units in the field (Germany did this)
9-shut down sectors of your economy that don't matter to the war effort (pretty much everybody did this to some extent)
One of the manpower problems that you should run into if HOI4 models it correctly, is that as you increase the number of factories, and put the economy on a "wartime basis" (i.e. running round the clock production shifts), this will eat into your manpower. It takes 3 times the number of workers to run a 24 hour shift as to run a 8 hour shift. Figure 1000 workers per factory for regular production (just a number I'm throwing out), jumping to war production would take a serious hit on your available manpower unless other things are done to fix this.
(completely ficticous) Example: ten years ago, I broke my leg. The local witch doctor did a rain dance to drive out the evil spirits and my leg eventually healed.....but at a 45 degree angle. My twin brother broke his leg on the same day and had surgery to implant a metal plate which held his leg together, and is now a (slow) marathon runner.
More to the point.....
Most of the European states involved in WW2 had significant combat (i.e. men/males) loses in WW1. This is most true of France (as a proportion of total population). In France, the result of the lack of men (i.e. fathers/breeding males) led to a shortage of males available for military service, called "The hollow years" (IIRC) starting in the early 30's. This was one of the contributing factors to France's decision to build the Maginot line. Other nations (including Germany and the successor states of the Russian Empire) also had this, but to a lesser degree. The issue with the question is that you could have some domestic policy to increase population enacted on 1 Jan 1936 (start of the game), but by 1945, the resulting "population increase" would be at best 8 years old. The only real way to increase numbers available to the military is to do one or more of the following:
1-lower physical standards so that those with minor (or maybe major) disabilities would then serve (Germany did this)
2-lower the age of recruitment (Germany did this)
3-include both genders in the military (Soviets did this more than anyone else, but the allied powers also did this to some extent-at least in non-combat roles)
4-draft foreigners into your military (Germany did this)
5-increase efficiency in your economy so that less manpower is required for production (pretty much everyone tried this, to varying degrees of success)
6-mobilize foreign workers for your economy to free up native manpower (Germany did this-pls don't use this to start a discussion on a banned subject)
7-include women (and maybe children) in the workforce (pretty much everyone did this except Germany, unless you count Germany's doing ++++++ (a banned subject))
8-decrease the manning level/size of your units in the field (Germany did this)
9-shut down sectors of your economy that don't matter to the war effort (pretty much everybody did this to some extent)
One of the manpower problems that you should run into if HOI4 models it correctly, is that as you increase the number of factories, and put the economy on a "wartime basis" (i.e. running round the clock production shifts), this will eat into your manpower. It takes 3 times the number of workers to run a 24 hour shift as to run a 8 hour shift. Figure 1000 workers per factory for regular production (just a number I'm throwing out), jumping to war production would take a serious hit on your available manpower unless other things are done to fix this.
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With good medical care, people that are too sickly and weak, can live to adulthood. Stephen Hawking - case in point. Thus, it can be argued, same % of men in manpower, can serve today as before all the medical care.
Stephen Hawking didn't develop his condition until after he was an adult. But more to your comment about medical care, same percentage, maybe, but lower absolute numbers in places with low medical care. And even probably same percentage is not correct, because males engage in more dangerous occupations and hobbies than females 99% of the time, and have higher death rates because of this (and also higher death rates from other causes- check out any current longevity table for any country with a high standard of medical care- male death rates are higher, and females outlive males by up to 10 years.)
Ok, I stand corrected, my example was a bad one. Still, my main point stands - because women die too, from childbirth and other problems. Before huge improvements in medical care, there were many more kids, but fewer elders. Now the age pyramid is more top-heavy, but number of men of military age is roughly the same.
I think we (both of us) are getting off topic here.
I was just trying to demonstrate that there is no real way to "increase population" as such in the game, only change things around that would "free up" manpower to carry rifles.
I was just trying to demonstrate that there is no real way to "increase population" as such in the game, only change things around that would "free up" manpower to carry rifles.
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It looks like they do track the number of people in a state:
12m people in New York State sounds about right. I guess if they're doing that they might well use that number for manpower and civilian casualties.
If that picture's now out of date, a nuke or heavy strategic bombardment might just downgrade the "status" of a province from Megalopolis to Metropolis and further, reducing its number of factory slots.
If I was designing the game from scratch I wouldn't bother tracking civilian populations - a manpower stat in each province would be fine by me.
12m people in New York State sounds about right. I guess if they're doing that they might well use that number for manpower and civilian casualties.
If that picture's now out of date, a nuke or heavy strategic bombardment might just downgrade the "status" of a province from Megalopolis to Metropolis and further, reducing its number of factory slots.
If I was designing the game from scratch I wouldn't bother tracking civilian populations - a manpower stat in each province would be fine by me.
actually i think it was because of how ludicrous and arbitrary the manpower numbers were in previous HOIs that they went with actual population numbers