How does one become civilized?

[unmerged(19226)]

re grumbold

Once again a Paradox game seems to be sliding from the melting pot of history toward the cast iron bar of historical determinism. What on earth is the point in having technological advances in economics, politics and the arts and political reforms if none of them can actually affect something as basic and fundamental as being considered a civilised nation? If you're building railroads, opening a stock exchange, holding democratic elections and debating philosophy then you're obviously a civilised nation and should be treated as one. Being asked to open the save file is not good enough. You may possibly be able to decide whether you are civilised without too much bias but you certainly cannot monitor all the other nations, and they deserve the chance too.

I agree with your opinion.

There should be some requirements in the way mentioned by me before.

But if the only way to become civilized will be also in the future patches only by events there should be event for all uncivilized nations (for less important nations there can be one common event appearing only in certain periods and under certain circumstances).

Now merely China, Japan and some other uncivilized nations can become civilized and most of uncivlized nations can't. I think that such solution is too necessitarian.

 

[unmerged(24157)]

The problem with a civilized China is the same problem as Russia, England and Austria - nations get too much cash from taxing huge populations of subsistance-farming peasants. China is pretty rich even uncivilized. Once it gets Civilized-grade tax efficiency, it can have a balance of +1000 a day without building a single factory or railroad.

I played a China game a while back. Before I was civilized, I was able to afford full Education and Crimefighting funding and still be running +100 or so a day at a tax and tariff level that wasn't adding to Conciousness or Militancy. European nations (other than Britain) can't even come close to that.

Big populations should be valuable. But it seems a little overdone.

 

[unmerged(19226)]

re DAP

Big populations should be valuable. But it seems a little overdone.

You're right. This should depend on some other factors. I would like to see some change in this case in one of the future patches. In the whole history of the mankind wealth of states has never depended on how many people inhabited it.

But many other than China uncivilized states have much smaller populations in Vic and they don't have any chance to becoming civilized nation (China has event).

 

[unmerged(24157)]

Clearly, its not just the population. The Education and Crimefighting costs are tied to population levels. So its also the huge number of provinces producing relatively valuable commodities in their RGOs - all that tea, for instance.

But a nation like Oman (for which I've had an affection going back to EU2), for instance, even if it could become civilized it couldn't do much with its tiny population. There's some decent-sized POPs in Swahili Coast, but it can't make that place a state so it can't build factories there to put them to work.

If the nation you're playing doesn't have a reasonably big population - over 10 million, say - then your only hope of "winning" is through Prestige gained from Cultural inventions. You arn't going to be able to beat Austria or Russia or the US for industrialization. You can get into the top 10 maybe but that's about it. You might be able to get enough cashflow to build a mammoth Navy, I suppose. So you should probably be able to do ok on Military. Cheapest way to get high Military rating is through maxed-out Reserves. And with a small population, you'll have a low cap on that.

That's not unreasonable, of course. Turning Oman into one of the world's leading nations would be a true prodigy.

 

[Mozart41st]

You guys ought to check out the Victoria Community Mod. There are now events for Egypt and Korea to become civilized, and there are going to be events for Siam in the next update.

Check out my sig for details.

 

[unmerged(24197)]

My thought

Here's my thought, I want to make a mod for it but don't know how:

You need the following:
Prestige of 500
Industrial level of 30
Tech level 1 in each field
Literacy rate of 30% (or 50%)
A parlimentary,democratic or communist government
NO corruption present in any providence
No Rebels present
Revolt level below 3% in each providence
Some cost in certain resources

This would make it obtainable for every country. It would also hinder China as it is expensive to raise China's literacy. It should then ask you if you want to westernize (civilize) the country or not. When you do there should be a penatly. It should create some rebels who want to return you to the "old ways" or it should split your army 50 - 50 (representing the opposition) and you should have to fight them. If they take the capital - you fall back to 'uncivilized'. It should also raise the militancy of your aristocrates and your revolt percentage (so Rebels may randomly appear). Once you beat them and meet the criteria again - same penalties again.

Those would be harsh consequences and depending on your situation you may choose no to civilize. Then it should 'randomly' ask again no sooner than 1 or 2 years after choosing no.

 

[unmerged(4609)]

I think becoming 'civilized' is just a bias western way of looking at things. Like hildoceras said China isn't an uncivilized nation, they just didn't carry the military technology to fend off England.

Back then, and even now China holds great pride of themselves as the dominant power over Asian territories. And part of the reason why they were so behind the technological advances that went on around the world is because they thought they were the best, and couldn't bear to imagine themselves trading with barbarians outside their western borders. After all they were the ones to find out about gunpowder and paper.

So the word 'civilized' or 'uncivilized' is totally offensive and bias towards these great nations of the East, and should be remodified to something like 'modern' or 'technologically advanced'.

 

[unmerged(4609)]

Heh I was gonna respond by saying PRESTIAGE BABY its all about the prestiage as it was in 1.01 heh u could make china a great power in about 5 mins in 1.01 just annex vietnam, and a few other minors there.

How are u #1 industrial power as korea? And how are u number #3 prestiage? Just curious... did u annex japan or something or mess china up? Oh god nightmares about Japan are popping up heh as my 1.01 game as China I rolled over Japan with a little annoyance of the old school partizan but my 300,000 men dealt with em god now I would be like AAAAAHHHHHHHH.

When I first started the game as Korea I was surprised to see how big the population was. There were unassigned workers and farmers everywhere! So what I did was take half of these unemployed workers and turn them into soldiers and officers. explains the high individual power.

Oh, yes, the money problem. Korea starts out with 250 ducats and 0.02 literacy. So what the hey, I severely cut down the education, crime fighting taxes, and raised the poor middle and rich taxes right away.

Getting parts to create soldiers and to build ships was the HARDEST thing to do. But I managed to build 3 transport ships. And by this time Britain was going to war with USA, and luckily I became Great Britain's ally. So I loaded up my troops in that little boat of mine, and start pillaging US's colonies in western Canada while Britain was going through hell around their boarders with USA.

I also re routed and sent my troops near Liberia, where I got to pillage many French colonies, although my streak of luck has ended when I was defeated by rebel scums (even match, 5000 vs 5000) yes.. quite embarrasing.

Anyways... bad news for me...Korea cannot be a civilized nation...which sucks!

I am going to change the saved file like people advised me to, but how do you do it?

 

[hildoceras]

the save file is in text mode. look at a file of a civilized country and how it is cripted and look for the same thing in the save of the uncivilized nation

 

[hildoceras]

Here's my thought, I want to make a mod for it but don't know how:

You need the following:
Prestige of 500
Industrial level of 30
Tech level 1 in each field
Literacy rate of 30% (or 50%)
A parlimentary,democratic or communist government
NO corruption present in any providence
No Rebels present
Revolt level below 3% in each providence
Some cost in certain resources

This would make it obtainable for every country. It would also hinder China as it is expensive to raise China's literacy. It should then ask you if you want to westernize (civilize) the country or not. When you do there should be a penatly. It should create some rebels who want to return you to the "old ways" or it should split your army 50 - 50 (representing the opposition) and you should have to fight them. If they take the capital - you fall back to 'uncivilized'. It should also raise the militancy of your aristocrates and your revolt percentage (so Rebels may randomly appear). Once you beat them and meet the criteria again - same penalties again.

Those would be harsh consequences and depending on your situation you may choose no to civilize. Then it should 'randomly' ask again no sooner than 1 or 2 years after choosing no.

it as at least a merit : it gives every uncivilized country an opportunity to become civilized. I think an autocracy could be civilized (Russia for instance) so the political regime is not so important.
Matching ALL the required value seems very difficult (especially 500 in prestige, what small german or italian civilized country has even half of it ? and no corruption ... big civilized countries can't do it all the time) .
But being able to match some of them would be right.
I'd add that being a great power would do the trick or getting more than a white peace from a great power once or twice. Japan has been taken really seriously after the 1905 war vs Russia.

 

[unmerged(24197)]

thanks

it as at least a merit : it gives every uncivilized country an opportunity to become civilized. I think an autocracy could be civilized (Russia for instance) so the political regime is not so important.
Matching ALL the required value seems very difficult (especially 500 in prestige, what small german or italian civilized country has even half of it ? and no corruption ... big civilized countries can't do it all the time) .
But being able to match some of them would be right.
I'd add that being a great power would do the trick or getting more than a white peace from a great power once or twice. Japan has been taken really seriously after the 1905 war vs Russia.

Glad yo like my example. The prestige of 500 was basically a place holder in my idea. I like your additions. Now I just have to find the time to learn how to mod this game and still play it. Being a Daddy does not leave much time for this stuff. I made a copy of a mod someone posted that only requires prestige to become civilized. I figured I modify it but I don't know the commands to add al this stuff. <SIGH> I especially like the idea of severe revolt risk and rebels and losing a random amount of the army. I think it would reflect the peoples unwillingness to change.

 

[unmerged(14180)]

Many nations may call themselves civilised in Vicky.....buts thats just a big lie i tell you!

Who, in their right mind, would consider themselves a Civilised Gentleman, walking around smoking their pipe without a smoking jacket?!?!

God, make that any clothes at all....at least my 'civilised' pops haven't got any clothes......

 

[unmerged(4609)]

Hehehe and where are the table manners when you have never seen a fork in your life?

They cry out for more freedom and independence in the parliament, while people of 'uncivilized' nations had enjoyed it since birth of time!

Anyways, back to my question. in saved games folder, all i see is <gamename>.eug and <gamename>.cfg. How do you edit these files?

 

[unmerged(9621)]

Hey!! I do this. Are you calling me an uncivilized barbarian??!!

Suleyman,

I'm not representing my own views, only those of the Dutch Finance Ministry. I quote the BBC World Service:


"Dutch Finance Ministry officials have denied world media reports that they have declared war on white socks.

The reports suggested that white socks were banned after being labelled as "transgressing the limits of decent dress behaviour". "




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3397043.stm

Nothing wrong with being a barbarian. Take pride in your heritage!

 

[Gezz Inti]

Here's my thought, I want to make a mod for it but don't know how:

You need the following:
Prestige of 500
Industrial level of 30
Tech level 1 in each field
Literacy rate of 30% (or 50%)
A parlimentary,democratic or communist government
NO corruption present in any providence
No Rebels present
Revolt level below 3% in each providence
Some cost in certain resources

This would make it obtainable for every country. It would also hinder China as it is expensive to raise China's literacy. It should then ask you if you want to westernize (civilize) the country or not. When you do there should be a penatly. It should create some rebels who want to return you to the "old ways" or it should split your army 50 - 50 (representing the opposition) and you should have to fight them. If they take the capital - you fall back to 'uncivilized'. It should also raise the militancy of your aristocrates and your revolt percentage (so Rebels may randomly appear). Once you beat them and meet the criteria again - same penalties again.

Those would be harsh consequences and depending on your situation you may choose no to civilize. Then it should 'randomly' ask again no sooner than 1 or 2 years after choosing no.

Fine idea. But your criteria seems a bit harsh to me. They have already a hard time, I think 200 prestige would be enough. Is "no corruption" really necessary? And a split of the army 50-50 seems way to much to me. Military conservatism almost always includes conformism along powerholders.
But I'm confident with this promising event. Thanks..
For a somewhat related thread look here