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Jade_Rook

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Oh wow, that's really interesting. I didn't know Battletech had ever even engaged with the question of AI.

I wonder if some of our pilots could be affected by debilitating jump sickness, like maybe it's a hidden tag some of them could have. That'd be an interesting wrinkle!
There is a scenario pack that has a rogue AI commanding a bunch of drone battlemechs. Necromo Nightmare (Sarna link)
There was also an automated defense network back during the Star League called the Space Defense System (Sarna) that used a bunch of drone warships and aerospace fighters.

It would actually be pretty interesting to have a character that suffers from jump sickness. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets mentioned in game, even if it isn't something we have to deal with directly.
 

Amechwarrior

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What I don't get is why everyone/everything on the Argo and Leopard are standing on the floors and not floating about when in orbit around a planet, not under transit acceleration. The Argo only has simulated gravity in the 3 hab modules, yet the "Mech Bays, engineering, and etc all have the look of a place under normal gravity all the time. Sure, I think there are MagBoots in the fiction that could explain a persons stance, but their hair and items strapped to them would be floating free. Same goes for items on the ground/tables and everything else. The 0g enviroment would make things like moving massive 'Mechs and equipment very fast and easy (also more dangerous) but I'm sure it was really more of a "We don't have the time/budget/employees" to make a set of 0g and 1g art assets for every sim game scene and chat environment.
 

Pandajacket

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What I don't get is why everyone/everything on the Argo and Leopard are standing on the floors and not floating about when in orbit around a planet, not under transit acceleration. The Argo only has simulated gravity in the 3 hab modules, yet the "Mech Bays, engineering, and etc all have the look of a place under normal gravity all the time. Sure, I think there are MagBoots in the fiction that could explain a persons stance, but their hair and items strapped to them would be floating free. Same goes for items on the ground/tables and everything else. The 0g enviroment would make things like moving massive 'Mechs and equipment very fast and easy (also more dangerous) but I'm sure it was really more of a "We don't have the time/budget/employees" to make a set of 0g and 1g art assets for every sim game scene and chat environment.
Obviously the hair gel they use gives a very static look to their hair and all other items must be magnetic :p .
 

Stoffern

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One thing I would actually like to see, but haven't found, would be some sort of illustration or technical description of how a Leopard dropship gets configured for aft-directional G-forces.
I think Sarna.net even mentions that most leopards are indeed set up so the aft bulkheads functions as floors during spaceflight, but I have seen no further details on it, and I find it kind of an interesting engineering problem.
Admittedly I have never read any Battletech novel, maybe one of those touches on it.
 

Xinxspuz

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What I don't get is why everyone/everything on the Argo and Leopard are standing on the floors and not floating about when in orbit around a planet, not under transit acceleration. The Argo only has simulated gravity in the 3 hab modules, yet the "Mech Bays, engineering, and etc all have the look of a place under normal gravity all the time. Sure, I think there are MagBoots in the fiction that could explain a persons stance, but their hair and items strapped to them would be floating free. Same goes for items on the ground/tables and everything else. The 0g enviroment would make things like moving massive 'Mechs and equipment very fast and easy (also more dangerous) but I'm sure it was really more of a "We don't have the time/budget/employees" to make a set of 0g and 1g art assets for every sim game scene and chat environment.
Nailed it.
I'd suspend final judgment until we see some floor plans for the Argo, but it is listed as being a spheroid-type Dropship.

For a Dropship like this, think of it like a large building with multiple floors. The aft end (where the thrust comes out) is the bottom of the building, and the nose is the top. You'd have a series of small 'levels' stacked on top of each other, of varying sizes - largest near the fat parts of the ship, narrower in other places.
While under thrust, the whole ship has gravity. The hab pods fold down, towards the aft end of the ship, and so they have normal gravity as well. Assuming that you were confident in your ship's drive systems maintaining a constant thrust, you could move around, work on 'Mechs, etc. I'm sure the Captain would alert you before changing the acceleration of the ship, giving you plenty of time to secure loose objects, etc.
While not under thrust, the Dropship would experience zero-G (or microgravity if near a planet, which is practically the same thing). The hab pods would rotate, providing gravity for those areas only. The farthest point away from the ship (the 'tips' of the pods) would be the 'bottom' of the pod, and climbing 'up' would take you closer to the center spine of the Argo.
You could, in theory, maintain normal gravity throughout the ship while near a planet. To do so, you would have to find a point where the planet's gravity would be close to what you wanted (1G, 0.75G, etc), and then balance the Argo vertically on its primary drives while maintaining that orbit and altitude. This would be incredibly complicated to calculate and maintain. You'd also be extremely close to the planet's surface (relatively speaking), to the point where you would more properly be considered an aircraft than a spacecraft. Since it's been mentioned that the Argo is incapable of landing on a planet due to size/poor streamlining (much like the Behemoth), I suspect this wouldn't be an option.

To expound upon the initial question in the thread, it's worth noting that many early sc-fi authors recognized that the constant-1G thrust method was:
  1. A great way to allow your characters to have normal gravity for most of their trip, enabling normal writing and interactions.
  2. A very time-efficient way to traverse planetary distances, reducing travel time to what one would expect from a cruise ship, or a cross-continental train.
  3. Orders of magnitude more technologically advanced than anything we're capable of right now.
The drive efficiency/fuel usage is the key sticking point. We have drives that can manage G-level thrust outputs now, but only for a few minutes (rockets). We have drives that can maintain thrust for weeks or months or indefinitely, but can only put out thousandths of a G (ion drives). We don't have a technology that combines those two capabilities. Your garden-variety Overlord Dropship in the Battletech universe has to have a fusion reactor capable of generating staggering amounts of power - enough to power basically the entire United States, for instance. It would also (and this is one of the places where the normally spot-on math of the Battletech world seems to have missed a decimal place) use over 80 metric tons of fuel per day to maintain 1G thrust (assuming roughly 33% drive efficiency end-to-end, which would be a very efficient system from an engineering standpoint).

In short, while we may reach that level of interplanetary transit capability eventually - and indeed, we will have to, if we expect to leave this planet and become a spacefaring species - we are currently nowhere CLOSE to the technology needed to accomplish that.
 

Saber Avalon

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OK but Jump Ships have some sort of inertial dampening system surely? Or do they travel without acceleration somehow?

From Sarna's article on Jump Ships:

"Within a few minutes after firing up the Kearny-Fuchida drive [Drive that makes jumps possible], warning klaxons announce the impending jump and seconds later the K-F field expands around the ship. Warnings usually begin at 10 minutes, then 5 minutes, 1 minute, 30 seconds, and 10 seconds before the jump. Though a jump seems instantaneous, it can take several seconds depending on the distance traveled and the maximum number of DropShips carried[5]. A fully laden Potemkin-class WarShip jumping 30 light-years would require 375 seconds to complete a jump."

"The K-F field only correctly encompasses objects within the JumpShip or a DropShip that is properly connected by a KFFC Boom, and may slice through or mangle objects that are not fully encompassed[6]. Firing the K-F drive causes tidal stresses that can be felt up to 27 kilometers away from the JumpShip

It is possible to jump while moving; a JumpShip is not required to be stationary relative to the jump point. This is especially important for WarShips as it allows them to jump even while maneuvering under full thrust.

Passengers typically suffer mild dizziness from jumping. Some even suffer serious nausea (Transit Disorientation Syndrome or TDS) for some time after a jump, in a fashion similar to sea-sickness.

Damaged components of the K-F drive may cause the jump attempt to fail, usually because safety systems abort the jump when the hyperspace field forms improperly. In the case of particularly abrupt aborts, K-F drive damage may result, leaving the ship stranded at its origin."

"When materializing at their destination point (whether or not it was the intended destination of the jump), the JumpShip causes tidal stresses similar to those caused when jumping. It also advertises its presence with an electromagnetic pulse that can be detected billions of kilometers away, and an infra-red signature that can be detected from a relatively close range of up to 50,000 km. Together these are called the Emergence signature, and are determined by the total mass of the JumpShip and all attached DropShips. It is even possible to assess the mass or size of an arriving JumpShip from its emergence signature.

While a JumpShip may be in motion relative to the origin jump point, it always arrives "stationary" relative to the jump point. A somewhat inaccurate description is that being pulled through a jump takes the momentum out of any mass[9]. To be exact, the ship matches the motion (vector and velocity, or even orbital path) of the destination jump point upon emergence[10]. In the case of the Kaetetôã misjumps, the JumpShips found they were approaching the planet at 700,000 km/h.

The ship's alignment does not change during the jump, but it is possible for the navigator to make the ship turn while jumping, altering its alignment as desired."


"After a jump, the K-F drive must be recharged, which is a slow and delicate process. The most common way is for the JumpShip to turn its stern towards the sun and deploy its Jump Sail, essentially a huge solar collector resembling a parachute about one kilometer in diameter.

Station keeping thrusters allow the ship to maintain its position at the jump point and counter the downward drift toward the local star induced from the faint solar gravity at the standard (zenith and nadir) jump points which are stationary locations, not stable orbits"


"In this way, the jump drive can be recharged in six to nine days depending on the spectral class of the star. An alternative to the Jump Sail is to recharge the drive with the ship's power plant, but the delicate machinery of the K-F drive does not tolerate such treatment well.

Some JumpShips are equipped with a Lithium-Fusion Battery that provides a second charge for the K-F drive right away. The battery can be charged separately from the jump drive, in the same way as the drive itself."


"The Grav Deck, short for Gravity Deck is the one of two ways to create "artificial" gravity for spacecraft in the BattleTech universe." - Not all spacecraft are equipped with grav decks.
 
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mmurray821

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It would actually be pretty interesting to have a character that suffers from jump sickness. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets mentioned in game, even if it isn't something we have to deal with directly.

I had a character (when combining Mechwarrior RPG and Battletech) that had jump sickness. He recovered in 5-7 days so a standard jump was fine. If we had to come in via pirate jump then he was puking the entire time in the cockpit. Made for an interesting game.
 

Soldryn The Red

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The only thing that ever bothered me about using acceleration gravity in Battletech is aerodyne dropships (like the Leopard).

DISCLAIMER: I have no relation to the church of scientology WHATSOEVER other than that i find L. Ron Hubbard's Sci-Fi literature to be really good SCI-FI reading.

In the novel series "Mission: Earth" space vessels are designed to literally flip the interior compartments on spindles to rotate the room as needed for either horizontal or vertical orientation of the ship. Think of how the cars of a ferris wheel stay "up" no matter where on the wheel they are. Leopard class dropships, and all other aerodynes, are very specifically oriented in all the literature with "down" being towards the ships keel. This would obviously make operations under thrust rather tricky, when "down" is towards the engines at the rear of the ship.
 

Jamey

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Sure sure, but I'd think it wouldn't take too long before the ship can't accelerate fast enough to maintain gravity due to these relativistic forces. The fact that moving the ship at 1.2 Gs is an upgrade, implying the ship can't accelerate that fast normally makes me think that doubly so.
It’s important to remember that acceleration is only meaningful relative to something. In your spaceship’s frame of reference, you can accelerate at 1G forever (assuming you don’t run out of fuel).

In other frames of reference, you will be seen to be approaching the speed of light and your acceleration will slow. However, 1G of acceleration is actually not much compared to relativistic speeds, so it would take in the neighborhood of a year to reach 90% of the speed of light at a constant 1G.

Travel times in our solar system at 1G would be only a few days for anything out to Jupiter, so relativistic effects are not going to be meaningful for typical scenarios in the Battletech universe.
 

Dexion

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The only thing that ever bothered me about using acceleration gravity in Battletech is aerodyne dropships (like the Leopard).

What if I told you Aerodyne dropships, like the Leopard, actually have thrusters on the "belly" of the ship, and that when operating outside of gravity they actually use those belly thrusters (and not the rear facing ones) to accelerate between points in space. This allows them to still maintain Acceleration Gravity aligner with the deck.

Because they totally do.
 

Sable Phoenix

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What if I told you Aerodyne dropships, like the Leopard, actually have thrusters on the "belly" of the ship, and that when operating outside of gravity they actually use those belly thrusters (and not the rear facing ones) to accelerate between points in space. This allows them to still maintain Acceleration Gravity aligner with the deck.

Because they totally do.

Yep. Those vertical-takeoff-and-landing (VTOL) thrusters that aerodyne dropships all come equipped with still work perfectly fine in a vacuum. The ship can be accelerating "upward" and still be traveling "forward".
 

Soldryn The Red

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.....go look at any cutscene of the leopard in the game on the streams. It travels nose first not dorsal fin first in space....
 

Spartakus

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My favourite piece about jumpships: While for the crew the jump seems to be instantaneous, any outside observer does indeed notice time passing. That time increases with the length of the jump and the mass (or size?) of the jumpship. Before a jumship arrives there is a noticable EM-radiation at the destination which for a duration twice as long as the jump takes.
That means, the radiation can be detected before the ship even activates it's drive.
 

Dexion

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.....go look at any cutscene of the leopard in the game on the streams. It travels nose first not dorsal fin first in space....

I'm simply stating how it works per the lore. HBS art team may have taken creative license and choose not too show the ship flying in space the way it is described in the Dropship TRO, because while it makes perfect engineering sense, it would be jarring for someone that doesn't understand why.
 

Stoffern

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I could swear that I've read somewhere, and I think it was on Sarna, that some Leopards accelerate nose first in space, and they have things like hallways that turn into elevator shafts to acomodate this, but for the life of me I can't find the entry now.
 

Saber Avalon

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I could swear that I've read somewhere, and I think it was on Sarna, that some Leopards accelerate nose first in space, and they have things like hallways that turn into elevator shafts to acomodate this, but for the life of me I can't find the entry now.

I recall something like that too, believe it was in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, a Clan design. You strapped yourself into your bunk and be laying down but once the acceleration began you were standing. That wall your feet were against, which is now the floor, had the same amenities as the floor, which is now a wall. So your bunk was basically L shaped and if you had a table you actually had two but one was always on the "wall". How the hell that worked for the mechbay is beyond me.
 

Tirno

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"After a jump, the K-F drive must be recharged, which is a slow and delicate process. The most common way is for the JumpShip to turn its stern towards the sun and deploy its Jump Sail, essentially a huge solar collector resembling a parachute about one kilometer in diameter.

Station keeping thrusters allow the ship to maintain its position at the jump point and counter the downward drift toward the local star induced from the faint solar gravity at the standard (zenith and nadir) jump points which are stationary locations, not stable orbits"

This is the revised description, after somebody ran the numbers.

The old, first edition-type explanation was that the jumpships would turn their stern away from the local star. deploy their jumpsails, and then hang from the sail, nose-down, both recharging the jump drive and being held up by the light-pressure on the sail without having to use any engine thrust.

Nice idea, but someone put the decimal points in the wrong place.

Turns out, just a little calculating with F = m2* a = G * m1 * m2 / r^2, cancelling out the m2's and factoring in the mass of our Sun and the published distance for a jump point, the gravitational acceleration at zenith or nadir is a straight up ~0.1 G.

Light pressure, even adding in solar wind, is many orders of magnitude less than gravitational pull. If they hand-waved some kind of mechanism for the sail to produce 0.1G, they'd be looking at a structure that would weigh more than the rest of the Jumpship and payload combined.

So the new mechanics have the jump sail being essentially a big foldable solar panel that happens to (hand-wave) produce the kind of nice, smooth electrical current the KF drive likes. There's a big hole in the sail at the center to let through the drive plume from the jumpship's station-keeping drive at 0.1G thrust. The thrust and perhaps some light pressure spread out the sail.

Notionally, you don't have to go to the zenith or nadir to jump, just out a few AU, but deploying a sail in the ecliptic is a great way to get holes in the sail from small particles in solar orbit. Not a lot of rocks on solar-polar orbits.

Presumably, one of the things you'd have to do with the Jumpship's station keeping drive is thrust slightly higher than 0.1G so the ship can climb a bit further away from the star. When it is time to dock ships for the jump, you can't do it while the dropships or the jumpship are under thrust, or someone is going to get high energy nuclear rocket exhaust in the face. So, basically, when the KF drive is charged and they're ready to go, the Jumpship and all the Dropships that have been holding station with it cut their drives, start falling, and dock using maneuvering thrusters. No problem, they just have to finish their docking in free-fall before they drop below the minimum distance for jump. Lots of room in space for someone with a little forward planning. Come out the other end, all the Dropships unlatch in free-fall, move away, then the Jumpship swings its nose around, lights up the station-keeping drive, shimmies out the jump-sail and lather, rinse, repeat.

And this means the Jumpship needs fuel, regularly. I wonder what kind of discount you can negotiate for several tons of fuel... or if turning over some fuel is just part of the deal, like bringing a bottle to a party. Maybe there's a surcharge if you don't fork over some fuel, plus a reputation for being the jerk that doesn't contribute to keeping the Jumpship in the sky.
 

Saber Avalon

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This is the revised description, after somebody ran the numbers.

The old, first edition-type explanation was that the jumpships would turn their stern away from the local star. deploy their jumpsails, and then hang from the sail, nose-down, both recharging the jump drive and being held up by the light-pressure on the sail without having to use any engine thrust.

Nice idea, but someone put the decimal points in the wrong place.

Turns out, just a little calculating with F = m2* a = G * m1 * m2 / r^2, cancelling out the m2's and factoring in the mass of our Sun and the published distance for a jump point, the gravitational acceleration at zenith or nadir is a straight up ~0.1 G.

Light pressure, even adding in solar wind, is many orders of magnitude less than gravitational pull. If they hand-waved some kind of mechanism for the sail to produce 0.1G, they'd be looking at a structure that would weigh more than the rest of the Jumpship and payload combined.

So the new mechanics have the jump sail being essentially a big foldable solar panel that happens to (hand-wave) produce the kind of nice, smooth electrical current the KF drive likes. There's a big hole in the sail at the center to let through the drive plume from the jumpship's station-keeping drive at 0.1G thrust. The thrust and perhaps some light pressure spread out the sail.

Notionally, you don't have to go to the zenith or nadir to jump, just out a few AU, but deploying a sail in the ecliptic is a great way to get holes in the sail from small particles in solar orbit. Not a lot of rocks on solar-polar orbits.

Presumably, one of the things you'd have to do with the Jumpship's station keeping drive is thrust slightly higher than 0.1G so the ship can climb a bit further away from the star. When it is time to dock ships for the jump, you can't do it while the dropships or the jumpship are under thrust, or someone is going to get high energy nuclear rocket exhaust in the face. So, basically, when the KF drive is charged and they're ready to go, the Jumpship and all the Dropships that have been holding station with it cut their drives, start falling, and dock using maneuvering thrusters. No problem, they just have to finish their docking in free-fall before they drop below the minimum distance for jump. Lots of room in space for someone with a little forward planning. Come out the other end, all the Dropships unlatch in free-fall, move away, then the Jumpship swings its nose around, lights up the station-keeping drive, shimmies out the jump-sail and lather, rinse, repeat.

And this means the Jumpship needs fuel, regularly. I wonder what kind of discount you can negotiate for several tons of fuel... or if turning over some fuel is just part of the deal, like bringing a bottle to a party. Maybe there's a surcharge if you don't fork over some fuel, plus a reputation for being the jerk that doesn't contribute to keeping the Jumpship in the sky.

Apparently most jump points have recharge stations for jump ships, perhaps they refuel while using them to recharge the K-F drive too?
 

SkyShadowing

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Oct 15, 2010
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I suspect this Leopard is oriented thrusters-to-nose because otherwise the gravity would be all wrong when the Argo is under thrust.

Or HBS just decided to make it look normal because otherwise people would be confused and it would look derpy.