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Jomini

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@Jomini - I'd argue that they were actually throwing a lot of bodies and cash at military research and in battles. As an example, almost every major French king left the treasury empty following his "victories". The French Revolution didn't come out of the blue.

Yeah, but the vast majority of military expenditures were agricultural in nature. Take artillery. The buggers cost a fortune to cast. The powder was expensive. And you needed a lot of trained soldiers to operate them, but over the life the piece (which might be 100 years) the biggest cost was ... the horses/oxen you need to move the thing. Likewise, the single biggest cost for your artillerymen was their food. For just about any expenditure in the EU era, food for the workers/soldiers is just about always the biggest expense.

And what is the bulk of GDP in this era? Subsistence farming. As most of this is not monetized, it never sees the light of day in the French treasury (this is why trade, which was a tiny amount of world output was so important - you could tax it easily). The vast, vast bulk of the French economy pre 1800 is geared to agriculture and there were millions of Frenchmen trying to maximize their agricultural output. Even the nobility, who might not work the land directly, were deeply involved with the rents from their lands which were wholly dependent on agriculture. Remember the proximate cause of the French Revolution is the king needing money to pay down debts and the only viable means to do so being more tax in a largely agricultural society where higher taxes meant hunger.

The entire world's disposable income in pre-Agricultural Revolution days is dwarfed by that of single states post-Revolution. And, oddly enough, autocratic rulers have typically been unable to implement them. All of the early states - the Netherlands, GB, France, USA, Switzerland, Germany, Argentina, etc. were those that had specific limitations on executive powers. Those states with the greatest degree of absolutism - Russia, the OE, China, Spain, Persia, etc. were among the worst. Quite tellingly when the USSR opted to force through an agricultural revolution - perhaps the biggest confluence of pre-existing technology and absolutist control - it failed abysmally. Likewise, the attempted modernization of Chinese agriculture was a complete flop until Deng Xiaopeng moved to a less autocratic model. Globe spanning autocracies are actually likely to be among the least viable sort of societies to rapidly modernize agriculture and hence industry and science.
 

KPJ

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IIRC, the devs already said that EU4 is map-painting and that Internal Management is out of the plans.

And that is precisely what I'm unhappy with. I don't see the purpose of canals in this period, when the gameplay is already so uninteresting. So, why do canals bother me, specifically? Because it's as if they've said, "Well, our early modern historical game is perfect, so let's add some funky, wacky features for people who are bored of seeing things play out plausibly," when in fact, we've yet to see any added complexity based on historical factors that rulers of this period faced. I cannot imagine a world where the leaders of a country think in terms of, "Well, we've done everything available in the period, our power cannot be threatened in any way, soo... let's just force through this canal that will cost untold fortunes of wealth and labour."

I would rather have seen them go in a different direction, is all.
 

oblio-

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They're just game play features. On that note, any player who has ever formed an African power wishes that there was some Central African province where his troops could move from the West coast to the East coast. The canals are such a feature - a convenience.
 

solidprice

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They're just game play features. On that note, any player who has ever formed an African power wishes that there was some Central African province where his troops could move from the West coast to the East coast. The canals are such a feature - a convenience.

i would love this! ill even settle for a great project that makes a"great road" that connects the east and west coasts.
 

krisslanza

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They're just game play features. On that note, any player who has ever formed an African power wishes that there was some Central African province where his troops could move from the West coast to the East coast. The canals are such a feature - a convenience.

There's already a mod that turns all the "wasteland" into normal, colonizable land.
 

oblio-

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There's already a mod that turns all the "wasteland" into normal, colonizable land.
Well, if feel that colonizable might be a bit too much. But making a 1 base tax, 8 supply limit province in the middle of Africa doesn't sound that strange. You want to go through the center of Africa? By all means, lose half your troops :)
 

Zagys

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The canals plausible during this period are already in the game as the level 3 trade building.
 

Fulmen

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I think it's a bad idea to add canals that were in real life built outside of EUIV's timeframe.

Especially the Suez and Panama canals do not belong into EUIV.
 

delpiero1234

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I think it's a bad idea to add canals that were in real life built outside of EUIV's timeframe.
I agree.
Maybe we will also get spaceships with the new DLC to bring trade home from a far far away galaxy :huh: ?
 

Warial

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I think it's a bad idea to add canals that were in real life built outside of EUIV's timeframe.

Especially the Suez and Panama canals do not belong into EUIV.
Well, there was Canal of the Pharaohs, granted it connected the Red sea to the Nile river, but they somehow managed to build it in BC era.
 

deezee

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You have to consider incentives too. For many canals, they were viable relatively early on from an engineering perspective (at least if you use a broad and generous definition of "viable", see the Canal of the Pharaohs). However, what a lot of people don't realize is that there really isn't much reason why you'd build a canal.
Consider it this way: Under the sailing technology of the 1600s to the 1700s (to say nothing of the Classical period), a voyage from say Greece to India would require several resupply stops anyways, so why waste time building an expensive and difficult to maintain canal instead of just making a stop near modern Suez and adding a (short) land segment of the journey). To be sure, the people on one end of Sinai are probably different merchants than those on the other end, but from the perspective of trade as a whole, that is pretty unimportant. It is only once it became feasible to make the journey in a single trip that it became worthwhile to look into the technology needed to make the journey in a single trip; it's why the Suez Canal proposal didn't come up until Napoleon even though trade from India to the Mediterranean through Egypt has been one of the main trade routes since ancient Greek times.
 

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They don't fit the EU IV time frame.

I think it's a bad idea to add canals that were in real life built outside of EUIV's timeframe.

Especially the Suez and Panama canals do not belong into EUIV.
I agree that the Panama canal shouldn't be in the game. I am not sure about the Suez canal, since I don't think it is completely impossible that it could have been built in the very late game; it probably should have a very large maintenance cost in order for it to remain open.

The Kiel Canal is different though. As has been mentioned a canal was actually built by the Danes in 1785 and it remained in use until 1895 when the Kiel Canal took over. I don't know if all in game ship types where able to navigate the Danish canal though; its width was around 30 m and its around 3.5 m, so my guess would be no.
 

WeissRaben

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IIRC, the devs already said that EU4 is map-painting and that Internal Management is out of the plans.

Which is why I'm not giving them a cent more for EU4 unless they change plans. I have more or less dropped it because it is a sad parody of what a grand strategy game about the Early Modern Era should be.