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blasteg

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My thoughts are that canals are interesting.

If I have the land, the money and the desire to build canals (or even airplanes)
What's stopping me? Rebels demanding better uses of their tax.

So maybe there will be a rebel type called "stop wasting ducats" to pop up when building these huge projects.

And maybe pretenders, too. Claiming the king is mad.

But that wouldn't stop the ambitious rulers to start these projects. So why should we banned from doing these projects?

If it's harder than the current engineering level, there would be just a lot of setback event, and rebels, but if the king persists through them, the hired builder would ultimately found a way to accomplish it, with technology breakthrough event firing signaling the approach of success or something.

Remember the effect of that decision is "start a great project", not a completion of canals, so there are tons of flexibility there.
 

oblio-

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fleetothemoon

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I was just wondering what you think about Panama, Suez and Kiel. Personally I like them in Vicky 2, but I don't think that early modern engineering was advanced enough to justify addition of those canals to EUIV and I would prefer more time period appropriate canals. I hope that if they add those canals they also extend the timeline to 1914.

I'm cool with the ideas and wouldn't mind them adding more canal projects. However, with consideration of the costs and the tech requirement for some of the canals, it's probably more of a trophy project rather than a practical investment.
 

jonman122

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The earlier you start the game the more you write a story, and the story is very likely to not resemble real-life history at all. Those decades and centuries of hypothetical in the "what if...?" tells a story. There is little historical accuracy in a scenario where Burgundy forms France, Scotland demolished the English, Holy Roman Empire has effectively ceased to exist in mid 17th century due combined effort of France, Bohemia, and Poland blobbing alliance taking ground and after long period of German states disappearing Austria is lesser partner of personal union, Denmark diploannexed Kalmar union and owns part Estonia, part Brandenburg, Moscow fails to form Russia since Lithuania expanded uncannily towards Russian territory and Novgorod survives until late 16th century before short-lived Kingdom of Finland appeared and was promptly taken over by the Danish, my glorious Naples owned ½ of Italy and most of Turkish territory, and Portugal of all things formed Spain. This all based in a bit bizarre game I witnessed not too long ago and I have not even started how things were further in the East, and arguably that world by 18th century was completely unrealistic and extraordinarily ahistorical. If one was to add randomised New World we'd run into even more interesting problems since the Earth climate would be drastically different and grossly unrealistic and even more stupid than the upcoming canals among other things.

Also why do I have Carolean infantry when I am not playing as Sweden? Or Napoleonic Square is specific infantry type? I thought square is formation like wedge or column, not somehow standardised infantry which fights only in squares. Why my technology is arbitrarily pre-defined with no random factors involved so we all know flintlock muskets will exist and be magically superior to old ones simply because the game said so? Why I cannot find that the hard way or only after years of military investments, combat experience and perhaps even just someone calling out how stupid my military is? Once again, we could draw the basic line of ahistorical situations and realism to the most simplest things and still form argument which holds because something is wrong.

I'm getting quite meta here but if we think it under the idea that EU4's world of that scenarios indeed reality, the sheer number of books and study (or lack of) to their own history in such world is indeed a story and their history and all that when you think about does indeed form a story. Story which makes no sense and is nothing but result of 0s and 1s doing their work, but a story nonetheless.

(No offence intended by the way.)

This is pretty much what I mean. Saying it's in no way possible that technology could have possibly advanced in some way earlier than it did historically, but somehow Germany can form before 1550 or England can own 90% of the entire world sounds to me a bit strange to cope with. How is something like that even physically possible given the constraints on the military power and technology of the time? Logistically, it wouldn't have been possible. Having technology before it actually existed given that you have 400 years to work with is easily possible although it didn't actually happen because obviously the technology didn't exist at the time.

The difference is if you have the drive to make the Panama Canal and you needed that technology, you would employ every person you could possibly think of who had any kind of expertise to help you do this project, especially if you're a little bit crazy and the absolute monarch of an entire country.

Which now that I've looked through this again is pretty much this:
My thoughts are that canals are interesting.

If I have the land, the money and the desire to build canals (or even airplanes)
What's stopping me? Rebels demanding better uses of their tax.

So maybe there will be a rebel type called "stop wasting ducats" to pop up when building these huge projects.

And maybe pretenders, too. Claiming the king is mad.

But that wouldn't stop the ambitious rulers to start these projects. So why should we banned from doing these projects?

If it's harder than the current engineering level, there would be just a lot of setback event, and rebels, but if the king persists through them, the hired builder would ultimately found a way to accomplish it, with technology breakthrough event firing signaling the approach of success or something.

Remember the effect of that decision is "start a great project", not a completion of canals, so there are tons of flexibility there.

This is exactly where I'm coming from, with the right drive these things were entirely possible.

I won't respond to people who suddenly come out of nowhere claiming people with a different opinion are trolls though. That's just silly.
 

anubisfike

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This is pretty much what I mean. Saying it's in no way possible that technology could have possibly advanced in some way earlier than it did historically, but somehow Germany can form before 1550 or England can own 90% of the entire world sounds to me a bit strange to cope with. How is something like that even physically possible given the constraints on the military power and technology of the time?

How is something like the Panama canal even physically possible given the constraints on logistics and technological development of the time? How can you say "world conquest is impossible!!!!" or "Germany uniting is impossible!!!!" but the Panama canal is possible because "with the right drive these things were entirely possible"? How do those two viewpoints coexist in the same person? Are you even thinking about what you're saying?

Logistically, it wouldn't have been possible. Having technology before it actually existed given that you have 400 years to work with is easily possible although it didn't actually happen because obviously the technology didn't exist at the time.

What?

This is exactly where I'm coming from, with the right drive these things were entirely possible.

I won't respond to people who suddenly come out of nowhere claiming people with a different opinion are trolls though. That's just silly.

You don't seem to be responding to much at all, especially anyone with an opinion conflicting with your own.
 

jonman122

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How is something like the Panama canal even physically possible given the constraints on logistics and technological development of the time? How can you say "world conquest is impossible!!!!" or "Germany uniting is impossible!!!!" but the Panama canal is possible because "with the right drive these things were entirely possible"? How do those two viewpoints coexist in the same person? Are you even thinking about what you're saying?

If you read the sentences carefully, you notice that what I'm saying is in fact that saying having the panama canal and an insanely huge world spanning nation were entirely possibly, but with your ideas of how constrained the history of our planet was, they aren't. Logistically, at that point in history, it was not possible for those nations to conquer the world. If they had done things differently from 1445 onwards, it's entirely possible in theory that it could have happened, and thus it occurs in the game. I guess I should have put it in laymans terms earlier.

I respond where I can and when I find it furthers the conversation, if I didn't respond to your personal post it's because I've already said the same thing to someone else or my point was made previously.
 

Sir Iain

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Exept in EUIV there's no way to industrialize with earlier. If you conquer the world as the Ottomans, you are doing so with an agrarian economy. You can be a bit earlier in developing technologies, but it's impossible to develop leather cannons in the 1480's. The game just doesn't let you do it.
 

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Exept in EUIV there's no way to industrialize with earlier. If you conquer the world as the Ottomans, you are doing so with an agrarian economy. You can be a bit earlier in developing technologies, but it's impossible to develop leather cannons in the 1480's. The game just doesn't let you do it.

But it will allow you to build the Panama Canal when you have sufficient technology level and money, so the nation then would have advanced to a point where building the Panama Canal is possible.
 

anubisfike

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If you read the sentences carefully, you notice that what I'm saying is in fact that saying having the panama canal and an insanely huge world spanning nation were entirely possibly, but with your ideas of how constrained the history of our planet was, they aren't. Logistically, at that point in history, it was not possible for those nations to conquer the world. If they had done things differently from 1445 onwards, it's entirely possible in theory that it could have happened, and thus it occurs in the game. I guess I should have put it in laymans terms earlier.

So essentially you are saying that the people who don't think the Panama canal is realistic for the time period should rather be posting about unrealistic nations forming or how you shouldn't be able to conquer the world? Or are you saying everything should be possible because maybe it could have happened? Both? If anything is possible why not let the player start the industrial revolution in Italy or the Netherlands in 1650 given the right circumstances and you can have tanks and cars and bicycles and trains at the end of the game?
 

jonman122

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So essentially you are saying that the people who don't think the Panama canal is realistic for the time period should rather be posting about unrealistic nations forming or how you shouldn't be able to conquer the world? Or are you saying everything should be possible because maybe it could have happened? Both? If anything is possible why not let the player start the industrial revolution in Italy or the Netherlands in 1650 given the right circumstances and you can have tanks and cars and bicycles and trains at the end of the game?

Basically yes. As for having cars, because the game has limits, they didn't program those options in. If they had, I'd be advocating for taking out the "you're 20 years ahead of how technologically advanced you should be, now kindly wait until everyone else catches up" mechanic. They did however program in the panama canal, so there it is.
 

anubisfike

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Basically yes. As for having cars, because the game has limits, they didn't program those options in. If they had, I'd be advocating for taking out the "you're 20 years ahead of how technologically advanced you should be, now kindly wait until everyone else catches up" mechanic. They did however program in the panama canal, so there it is.

[video=youtube;rjA5A86V6SY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjA5A86V6SY[/video]
 

jonman122

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Yes, there it is, I like the idea of being able to expand the gameplay to allow for ahistorical things and I'm glad they aren't going to cowtow to people who feel it should be the same as reading a history book. This pleases me immensely. Now we know. Oh yes now we know.

[video=youtube;w4CQin03MDQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4CQin03MDQ=en_US&start=20[/video]
 

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Nice, now I want tanks, aircrafts, moon landing, machine guns, steel warships, subs, mechas and nukes.

Look, I have money and max mil tech, why not? I would just pump 938475283947528934 african slaves on it, disconsidering the fact that slaves weren't meant for meatgringing, and some thousand of ducats.

Oh, and German nations should be able to build the V1-2 rockets.
 

Jomini

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This is pretty much what I mean. Saying it's in no way possible that technology could have possibly advanced in some way earlier than it did historically, but somehow Germany can form before 1550 or England can own 90% of the entire world sounds to me a bit strange to cope with. How is something like that even physically possible given the constraints on the military power and technology of the time? Logistically, it wouldn't have been possible. Having technology before it actually existed given that you have 400 years to work with is easily possible although it didn't actually happen because obviously the technology didn't exist at the time.

This is, in a word, BS. Take a very simple problem how to accurately determine longitude at sea. Many folks know that the British famously offered a huge prize and that resulted in the development of the maritime chronometer in the late 1700s. What people don't know is that larger prizes were previously set up by the Dutch and Spanish who had far more people working on them and spending far more money. Yet they got nowhere - even though they worked on the same idea as Harrison who made the first marine chronometer.

Why?

Because there are a lot of upstream processes that prima facie have nothing to do with watchmaking that went into the marine chronometer. Gear control mechanisms from industrial processes were rejiggered as anti-yaw control elements. Metallurgic advances went into making temperature independent motions. Philip II did exactly what you suggest - he dumped a huge amount of money and manpower at the problem - and got nowhere because there were 20 different advances that needed to be made first.


The difference is if you have the drive to make the Panama Canal and you needed that technology, you would employ every person you could possibly think of who had any kind of expertise to help you do this project, especially if you're a little bit crazy and the absolute monarch of an entire country.
That wouldn't make a difference at all. Without an agricultural revolution a globe spanning empire is going to have fewer people to throw at a problem than little old Brittania after the agricultural revolution. Before even a totalitarian despot (which never existed in the EU timeframe) can throw bodies at a problem, you have to feed them. Feeding them in the EU timeframe requires the vast bulk of your labor stock. Something like 98% of the population needs to be doing manual labor as farmers in the early EU period. After the agricultural revolution you dropped that down to around 40% and you increased the base population (getting around the land limitations). 1880s France had more manpower to throw at the Panama Canal than the entire word in 1700. In terms of purchasing power parity, 1880s France had more wealth to throw at the problem than the entire world in 1700. 1880s France - with the industrial revolution behind it, couldn't finish the Panama Canal.

So maybe you will just throw money and bodies at improving agriculture? Sorry but that is exactly what 90+% of the world's population was doing in the EU period. These weren't stupid morons lazing about waiting for some enlightened genius to say "you know you should make agriculture more efficient", they were hard working folks who struck a good balance between securing their livelihoods and experimenting.

This is exactly where I'm coming from, with the right drive these things were entirely possible.

I won't respond to people who suddenly come out of nowhere claiming people with a different opinion are trolls though. That's just silly.
No, what is silly is how you keep repeating your mantra "these things were entirely possible" without offering an iota of evidence to support it. You play a nation, not a god. So if you aren't a troll, man up, and give us some hard figures. Let's grant you 50% of the worlds population in 1600; how many bodies do you send to Panama? What will their living conditions be? From where will they be fed? How much tonnage will be required for supplying them? Give us your actual plan of attack that a despot in 1600 who controls 50% of world population would manage.
 

oblio-

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@Jomini - I'd argue that they were actually throwing a lot of bodies and cash at military research and in battles. As an example, almost every major French king left the treasury empty following his "victories". The French Revolution didn't come out of the blue.

Nice, now I want tanks, aircrafts, moon landing, machine guns, steel warships, subs, mechas and nukes.

Look, I have money and max mil tech, why not? I would just pump 938475283947528934 african slaves on it, disconsidering the fact that slaves weren't meant for meatgringing, and some thousand of ducats.

Oh, and German nations should be able to build the V1-2 rockets.
Your logic is impeccable sir, I bow before you. As did Paradox.
 
Last edited:

Labrynian Rebel

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I love them being in... just not Panama. Please replace with a more realistic one Paradox...
 

KPJ

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I think it's really stupid, I hate the direction they've gone with EU4. Bring in some complexity a la Victoria 2 and Crusader Kings 2, damn it! You have the technology!

This is the rennaissance and the age of discovery, where are the internal factions? Why aren't we guiding our nation towards progress? Instead, it's paint the map. Boooring.

I don't usually post in this (EU4) forum anymore, but here's one I hope makes an impact.
 

Trickrs

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I think it's really stupid, I hate the direction they've gone with EU4. Bring in some complexity a la Victoria 2 and Crusader Kings 2, damn it! You have the technology!

This is the rennaissance and the age of discovery, where are the internal factions? Why aren't we guiding our nation towards progress? Instead, it's paint the map. Boooring.

I don't usually post in this (EU4) forum anymore, but here's one I hope makes an impact.

IIRC, the devs already said that EU4 is map-painting and that Internal Management is out of the plans.