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Jomini

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This is where you go wrong. Throwing enough people, which would have included "earth scientists" and things, would have produced the materials needed. Innovation wasn't done just for fun back then and having it happen JUST when it happened in history just to please a few people is absurd. There's no reason a germ theory of disease couldn't have happened easier, or that if England owned half of europe instead of just the isles they'd have more of a fleet than the historical british merchant marine fleet. beep boop.

In this case they could make it so you have to have innovative tech as well, just to show the country was willing to actually do the scientific research necessary to make these things possible. Maybe have a few national decisions you need to acquire first.

If throwing people at a problem could do things like make large hydraulic structures that can withstand massive flow rates, why in hell was China dealing with a dike system that regularly failed just from heavy rain? The literally threw something like 5% of the world's population at the dike system, but it never came anywhere close to dealing with 80 ft rises. England owning half of Europe isn't going to matter worth a damn.

And please don't be daft about the needed underpinnings for discovering industrial processes. Take Bessimer steel - where did that come from? Well first you had to have a bajillion iron foundries so that one guy could have an industrial accident and notice that at high temperatures pig iron can be purified merely by oxygen contact; pretty much all the established understandings of steel manufacture (including those based on the most cutting edge theories of chemistry) specifically held that injecting air would lower iron temperature which would not produce steel. That in turn requires a ready market for mass iron production (i.e. railroads) and better working knowledge of elements as well as acid/base chemistry. Of course then you need to introduce manganese, so that means cooking hemitite and purified oxygen. Lest we forget, this is a global shipping problem too. Getting enough coke, manganese, etc. shipped around is going to swamp the logistics network of 1800.

And yes there are reasons why germ theory couldn't happen earlier. You needed better optics (and that takes a bucketful of upstream technologies), you need the ability to make fine glass (which can withstand repeated sterilizations and standard mass/volumes). You need model organisms (like how Pasteur studied silk worm diseases). You need organic chemistry.

The industrial revolution wasn't something that happened because the government went in and said "Hey let's do X", quite the opposite in fact. Watt built a better steam engine because the Newcomens were present in the mines, but rather inefficient. They in turn present because there was a market for the coal being pulled out below the water table which in turn happened because of colder weather and centuries of deforestation. The government actively tried to ban the use of coal - it simply advocated importing more wood/charcoal. And throwing more manpower at the "heating problem" would almost certainly have resulted in either conquest of timber rich coast and more ships to move it.

In every field there were hundreds of years of lead in to get to the industrial revolution. Germ theory has necessary antecedents going back past the 14th century and it was rarely silent for even a generation. Same thing with steel production - it continuously evolved over centuries. Most of the things that "caused" the industrial revolution are already well underway at game start. Speeding it up, well that simply isn't viable. Machine guns, tanks, airplanes, and telegraphs are all vastly closer to viable in the EU era than the Panama canal is. You play a nation, not a god.


Thankfully, this hopefully will be something rare that doesn't screw up the historical chokepoints and naval patterns. I get Pdox wants to do some interesting stuff, honestly I think they do better with something like allowing certain bottle neck straights (e.g. the Dardenelles, the Oresund) to be fortified and closed to hostile ships. Or perhaps finally let us build ships on the Caspian and Great Lakes. Panama - sorry that is just insanely too far out of time period.
 

TolHydra

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Unless you have converted your game from ck2 that you were a buddhist, and your family indulged in eugenics deeply (geniuses, everywhere) and reached max technology 200 years before the end, There is no possible plausible explanation to opening a canal that was a challenge in.. I don't know, last century.
 

anubisfike

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This is where you go wrong. Throwing enough people, which would have included "earth scientists" and things, would have produced the materials needed. Innovation wasn't done just for fun back then and having it happen JUST when it happened in history just to please a few people is absurd. There's no reason a germ theory of disease couldn't have happened easier, or that if England owned half of europe instead of just the isles they'd have more of a fleet than the historical british merchant marine fleet. beep boop.

In this case they could make it so you have to have innovative tech as well, just to show the country was willing to actually do the scientific research necessary to make these things possible. Maybe have a few national decisions you need to acquire first.

I don't think someone talking about "earth scientists and things" (I assume you mean geologists) should tell someone else they are wrong. You're completely missing the point too. It's not about being unwilling to make scientific progress, it's about enough progress being made in every relevant field that then combines to create something previously unheard or even never thought of. A lot of times it's even completely dependent on chance. Do you think a king could have preceded the real life discovery of penicillin and its uses by 100 years just because he puts a bunch of scientists in a room? What would the reason for putting them in a room together be? "Go discover something"? "Go to Panama and do some earth science-y stuff" is equally ridiculous.
 

Olaus Petrus

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Given I haven't seen quite that many people who play these games strictly historically, I don't see how an entirely optional ahistoric option is going to bother people that much. The cost and the tech for these things means the odds that anyone but the player will do them, is pretty slim.

These games have a fan base which appreciates historical detail which is in the games (I'm not from the extreme end, because I don't passionately hate CKII's Sunset Invasion or CoP's random New World, which both you can simply turn on and off according to your personal preferences). Then there are those who prefer gameplay over historical detail. Paradox is somewhere in between. My own fear is that the canals will give more significant strategic significance to Panama and Suez than they had during this time, which ultimately changes the dynamics of the game (especially in MP people might want to control these places). And then there's the fact that, while I enjoy both, I like to keep Vicky 2 and EUIV as separate games and I don't necessarily want to see everything from Vicky 2 ported into EUIV.
 

oblio-

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This topic has been flogged to death. Because of this: http://bikeshed.com/.

Tech level 26, 20k ducats. In how many games, multiplayer or not, can you afford that? IMHO, if someone in multiplayer in 1730 or so has that much money to burn, he's probably won the game already. And for single player role playing, if you have that much cash by then, you're probably a beacon of science covering half the globe (some would say a beacon of destruction) and similar to the Chinese Song dynasty you've had 300 of years to invest into science to be able to dig and maintain those canals.

I find it funny how suspension of disbelief works in EU4. Scotland conquers England, half the forum giggles like little girls. Paradox adds canals as a late game tech costing half the world - RAGE!!
 

jonman122

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I don't think someone talking about "earth scientists and things" (I assume you mean geologists) should tell someone else they are wrong. You're completely missing the point too. It's not about being unwilling to make scientific progress, it's about enough progress being made in every relevant field that then combines to create something previously unheard or even never thought of. A lot of times it's even completely dependent on chance. Do you think a king could have preceded the real life discovery of penicillin and its uses by 100 years just because he puts a bunch of scientists in a room? What would the reason for putting them in a room together be? "Go discover something"? "Go to Panama and do some earth science-y stuff" is equally ridiculous.

You can't be serious. Basing half of your argument off of the words someone else uses is the lowest form of tactical debating I've ever heard of. Look up geology and tell me what the definition of geology is. Oh wait, it's Earth science? How is that even thinkable, that Geology could be derived from greek and literally mean Earth science? You're telling me the first person considered to be a modern geologist was born in 1769? I think someone with your level of historical literacy shouldn't be arguing about something you know nothing about. Besides your inane and completely irrelevant comments regarding those topics, yes, it is entirely possible that with the right funding and the right people, penicillin could have been discovered, making locks for canals of that size (considering locks for canals had already been invented well before... by the Greeks in the 3rd century BC, something you might have overlooked) could have been done, and half of the known world could have been united under one banner. Just like we could have a mars base already, except that lack of funding and projected income means no one has any will to go there. Or they will, in 20 years.

With money and men, nearly anything is possible.
 
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Minigrinch

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it is entirely possible that with the right funding and the right people, penicillin could have been discovered, making locks for canals of that size (considering locks for canals had already been invented well before... by the Greeks in the 3rd century BC, something you might have overlooked) could have been done...

With money and men, nearly anything is possible.

Except as people have already extensively mentioned, it could not, the required materials to construct microscopes precise enough, let alone canal locks of that size and complexity, and let alone the complex steam engines necessary for dredging and pumping simply could not be reached that early, we could barely do it with technology that was being used less than 100 years ago. Time is a factor in technological advancement just as much as wealth and manpower are.

Great Britain in the 19th century owned nearly a third of the world including one of the most populated portions of Asia, was the most industrialised nation of the 18th century and still didn't have the technical expertise and scientific developments necessary. Science is not some arbitrary button to be pushed when you have enough cash and men.
 

chatnoir17

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China made the Grand Canal in the 7th century. Except Panama, it was just the matter of manpower, money and motivation, I think. F.e. Denmark owned Holstein, so they avoided to construct a canal which could have ruined their sound toll.
 

jonman122

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Except as people have already extensively mentioned, it could not, the required materials to construct microscopes precise enough, let alone canal locks of that size and complexity, and let alone the complex steam engines necessary for dredging and pumping simply could not be reached that early, we could barely do it with technology that was being used less than 100 years ago. Time is a factor in technological advancement just as much as wealth and manpower are.

Great Britain in the 19th century owned nearly a third of the world including one of the most populated portions of Asia, was the most industrialised nation of the 18th century and still didn't have the technical expertise and scientific developments necessary. Science is not some arbitrary button to be pushed when you have enough cash and men.

That's where I feel most people here are wrong as penicillin was used to treat diseases since the ancient greeks. Having it as a tiny pill isn't a necessary way to use it. Just imagine, if Isaac Newton hadn't been born, would we have Newtonian physics at all, or calculus? would someone else have discovered them later, or perhaps earlier if the right conditions applied? Just because you look back through history and can't possibly imagine how something that is ahistorical could come to pass, doesn't mean by any means that it's impossible or that someone else can't come up with a working theory on how it could have been done. Saying it was impossible due to our limited understanding is just because the right people hadn't been born yet with the right areas of curiosity. It's also entirely possible that those people were born in the 1500's and just didn't have any funding or died before they could get their ideas to the general public, or were executed for being heretics.

I'd also like to see how you propose we build a pyramid exactly like the Great Pyramid of Giza, and if we could do it in the 10-20 year timeframe the Egyptians did it in, with the same precision, with the same tools they had in 2560bc.
 
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Olaus Petrus

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China made the Grand Canal in the 7th century. Except Panama, it was just the matter of manpower, money and motivation, I think. F.e. Denmark owned Holstein, so they avoided to construct a canal which could have ruined their sound toll.

Actually Denmark built it's own canal in 1780s. Ejderkanalen went from Kiel to Tønning. I suggested earlier in this thread that it should be in the game instead of later 19th century Kiel Canal, which uses partially the same route as the earlier Danish canal.
 

Minigrinch

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That's where I feel most people here are wrong as penicillin was used to treat diseases since the ancient greeks. Having it as a tiny pill isn't a necessary way to use it. Just imagine, if Isaac Newton hadn't been born, would we have Newtonian physics at all, or calculus? would someone else have discovered them later, or perhaps earlier if the right conditions applied? Just because you look back through history and can't possibly imagine how something that is ahistorical could come to pass, doesn't mean by any means that it's impossible or that someone else can't come up with a working theory on how it could have been done. Saying it was impossible due to our limited understanding is just because the right people hadn't been born yet with the right areas of curiosity. It's also entirely possible that those people were born in the 1500's and just didn't have any funding or died before they could get their ideas to the general public, or were executed for being heretics.

I'd also like to see how you propose we build a pyramid exactly like the Great Pyramid of Giza, and if we could do it in the 10-20 year timeframe the Egyptians did it in, with the same precision, with the same tools they had in 2560bc.

First of all knowing about penicillin is far easier than knowing how to cultivate, store and distribute it on a mass produced scale, let alone the fact that it doesn't work against viruses, let alone all bacteria. What you are implying is not that just one or two technologies are discovered a few decades early, but dozens of advances in every field are made earlier along with hundreds of their necessary precursors, even though the industrial and scientific culture and standards to achieve those discoveries isn't even in place until around the last 40 years of game time at the earliest.

While I wouldn't go as far to call the Pyramids easy, they weren't exactly the product of complex material and biological science in the way Panama is, they were simply the product of mathematical theories that had been around for decades if not centuries at the time they were built.
 

Victor Cortez

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My personal opinion is that the point is to be split in two:

1)
- How important is historical accuracy?
- What is something historically believable? What is too much?

2)
- What's the impact on gameplay?
- Does it make sense to have one very specific piece of engineering in two different games (EU and Vic), each covering two very different time eras?


My answers are:
1)
Historical accuracy and credibility are paramount. One of the biggest appeals of EU (apart from its sheer complexity) is the historical fidelity.
What we do is taking an encyclopedia, point a finger somehwere and say: "what if...?". We do not take a white paper and write our story. It's not Civ.


2)
The impact on the gameplay will probably be very little. If requirements are high enough (and they must be), then it's something people will do during WC just to showoff. Like "not only I've conquered this and that, but I was so filthy rich that I could afford to build Suez". And if you can afford that you actually probably do not need it. If you have 20k of gold and manpower to spare (I suspect building canals will use manpower too) etc, than you're probably controlling half of the world already.

But then again, no, I'm afraid it doesn't make too much sense to have the Suez Canal in EU and in Vic. The whole point of the EU time frame is that the world evolved the way it did because technology had its limits. Nations needed friendly ports for their ships on their way to the East Indies. The EU timeframe essence is man challenging nature, without the aid of modern technology, for the lust of gold. You just can't throw industrial tech in the mix.

If a country reaches the point where a Suez or Panama Canal are somehow feasable then the game failed somewhere. Because historical accuracy has just been completely screwed up.
 

anubisfike

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You can't be serious. Basing half of your argument off of the words someone else uses is the lowest form of tactical debating I've ever heard of.

While your entire post is obviously a way for you to simply save face I'm going to reply anyway. I was replying to you without realising there was another page to the thread. Editing my post after noticing to say "Also I didn't notice the post two posts above mine" would only make it worse.

Look up geology and tell me what the definition of geology is. Oh wait, it's Earth science? How is that even thinkable, that Geology could be derived from greek and literally mean Earth science? You're telling me the first person considered to be a modern geologist was born in 1769? I think someone with your level of historical literacy shouldn't be arguing about something you know nothing about.

If you know what geology is and you still call it earth science while speaking English it makes you seem like you're clueless. Furthermore I haven't mentioned anything about when geology was first studied although that's also largely irrelevant. Finally if you think sending a team of geologists to an area (disregarding the fact that geology in the western world at the time was still in its infancy) would automatically give you a revolutionary way to dredge canals or move vast quantities of soil you're still clueless.

Besides your inane and completely irrelevant comments regarding those topics, yes, it is entirely possible that with the right funding and the right people, penicillin could have been discovered, making locks for canals of that size (considering locks for canals had already been invented well before... by the Greeks in the 3rd century BC, something you might have overlooked) could have been done, and half of the known world could have been united under one banner. Just like we could have a mars base already, except that lack of funding and projected income means no one has any will to go there. Or they will, in 20 years.

What are you going to fund when you're looking for penicillin in an age where people, let alone the most highly educated people in the western world, had almost no idea what microorganisms were? If you want to argue about the method of constructing the locks for the canal why don't you respond to Jomini and tell him where he is wrong and what material the people in the years 1700-1800 could have used and how to manufacture it? How is it relevant that locks simply exist for them to be applied in Panama? Does the fact that the Romans had roads automatically imply that they could have constructed a car to drive on them?

Furthermore how is merely controlling a large population indicative of more potential in scientific discovery? Institutions that promote innovation and insitutions that provide education for a middle class that doesn't have to work all their lives help scientific discovery. Lording over 100 million poor peasants that work from age 5 growing what they can to survive doesn't. A mars base is not relevant to this argument either, we don't have a mars base because as you say there is no economic incentive at the moment for such an endeavour even though the technology is arguably already available (for example look at Mars One). The Panama canal not being built in the 1700's is not about economic incentive or about the right people not being interested in it, it's about the fact that it was impossible.
 

jonman122

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The Panama canal not being built in the 1700's is not about economic incentive or about the right people not being interested in it, it's about the fact that it was impossible.

The rest of what you posted was useless because it had already been discussed a post above this, but why does everyone keep saying its impossible? I've already stated how its very likely it could have potentially been possible. You are crazy to say that anything we can do now was literally impossible 100 years ago, because by the very nature of this universe you are wrong and it was very possible. This narrow-minded view of what could have potentially happened given the right circumstances historically is useless, if you believe that it was impossible then it's impossible for you to comprehend why the canal could have potentially been possible at the time given the 400 year time frame.
 

Minigrinch

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The rest of what you posted was useless because it had already been discussed a post above this, but why does everyone keep saying its impossible? I've already stated how its very likely it could have potentially been possible. You are crazy to say that anything we can do now was literally impossible 100 years ago, because by the very nature of this universe you are wrong and it was very possible. This narrow-minded view of what could have potentially happened given the right circumstances historically is useless, if you believe that it was impossible then it's impossible for you to comprehend why the canal could have potentially been possible at the time given the 400 year time frame.

Come on now, people have provided very specific examples of just how impossible it was, and literally all you can come up with is "anything is possible"?

For example, explain how material science for steel, and engineering techniques could be developed enough to build the large, complex locks needed for panama before the industrial revolution had even began to take off, and then people will take you seriously. Right now you've done the drawn out equivalent of saying "nuh-uh".
 

anubisfike

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The rest of what you posted was useless because it had already been discussed a post above this

Where is this now?

but why does everyone keep saying its impossible? I've already stated how its very likely it could have potentially been possible. You are crazy to say that anything we can do now was literally impossible 100 years ago, because by the very nature of this universe you are wrong and it was very possible. This narrow-minded view of what could have potentially happened given the right circumstances historically is useless, if you believe that it was impossible then it's impossible for you to comprehend why the canal could have potentially been possible at the time given the 400 year time frame.

It's also possible people could have been flying around in these:

leonardo-da-vinci-flying-machines.2.jpg

Should we take this into account by letting you develop flight technology for your army as long as you own more than half of the world (which seems like your main criteria for allowing ridiculous impossibilities)?
 

Mjarr

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1)
Historical accuracy and credibility are paramount. One of the biggest appeals of EU (apart from its sheer complexity) is the historical fidelity.
What we do is taking an encyclopedia, point a finger somehwere and say: "what if...?". We do not take a white paper and write our story. It's not Civ.

The earlier you start the game the more you write a story, and the story is very likely to not resemble real-life history at all. Those decades and centuries of hypothetical in the "what if...?" tells a story. There is little historical accuracy in a scenario where Burgundy forms France, Scotland demolished the English, Holy Roman Empire has effectively ceased to exist in mid 17th century due combined effort of France, Bohemia, and Poland blobbing alliance taking ground and after long period of German states disappearing Austria is lesser partner of personal union, Denmark diploannexed Kalmar union and owns part Estonia, part Brandenburg, Moscow fails to form Russia since Lithuania expanded uncannily towards Russian territory and Novgorod survives until late 16th century before short-lived Kingdom of Finland appeared and was promptly taken over by the Danish, my glorious Naples owned ½ of Italy and most of Turkish territory, and Portugal of all things formed Spain. This all based in a bit bizarre game I witnessed not too long ago and I have not even started how things were further in the East, and arguably that world by 18th century was completely unrealistic and extraordinarily ahistorical. If one was to add randomised New World we'd run into even more interesting problems since the Earth climate would be drastically different and grossly unrealistic and even more stupid than the upcoming canals among other things.

Also why do I have Carolean infantry when I am not playing as Sweden? Or Napoleonic Square is specific infantry type? I thought square is formation like wedge or column, not somehow standardised infantry which fights only in squares. Why my technology is arbitrarily pre-defined with no random factors involved so we all know flintlock muskets will exist and be magically superior to old ones simply because the game said so? Why I cannot find that the hard way or only after years of military investments, combat experience and perhaps even just someone calling out how stupid my military is? Once again, we could draw the basic line of ahistorical situations and realism to the most simplest things and still form argument which holds because something is wrong.

I'm getting quite meta here but if we think it under the idea that EU4's world of that scenarios indeed reality, the sheer number of books and study (or lack of) to their own history in such world is indeed a story and their history and all that when you think about does indeed form a story. Story which makes no sense and is nothing but result of 0s and 1s doing their work, but a story nonetheless.

(No offence intended by the way.)
 

greendevil

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Jonman122 has no argumentations, no examples, no culture on the matter and neverthless he's incredibly arrogant and keeps insulting people who talk with him.

Simply, do not feed the troll.

As for the matter of canals being introduced in game, I don't like it. As said by people more instructed than me on the matter it would have been impossible.
 

Victor Cortez

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The earlier you start the game the more you write a story, and the story is very likely to not resemble real-life history at all.

You're absolutely right, but you must admit that there's a bit of a difference between Scotland/England forming Great Britain and scientific discoveries made 200 years before they actually took place.

I don't mind if the Napoleonic Square is available in Austria, because that's reasonable enough to me. Corsica could have been an Austiran land, or someone could have had that idea in another country. That's something I can accept. What I wouldn't accept is the Napoleonic Square being available in 1500.

It's all a very personal opinion and there's no offence taken at all. Some say, there are some historical weird things so one more can't harm anyone (I don't not agree but I see the point), some others say that if such a technology appeared 100 years after the last day of the game (or whenever it is), it doesn't make sense to have it in game, full stop (I agree with this and I can't see why someone couldn't at least understand this point of view).
 

oblio-

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I'm kinda tired to write this again, since this is not the first thread about this topic, but Panama was close to impossible to build because of the difficult terrain and the tropical diseases. Both of them could have been overcome had the financial incentives been enough - which they weren't until steam powered ships became widely available and international traffic, both of passengers and goods increased exponentially.
That's why it wasn't built - because it cost 10 million arms and legs to build it and 1 million arms and legs per year to maintain it - especially maintenance wasn't feasible before the 20th century.
Most of the posters here are simply missing the point with the technological discussion. It was never about raw technology, but about its application and its cost/benefit analysis.

Suez and Kiel wouldn't have been trivial but would have been much easier to build during the game's time frame, and especially Suez seems financially plausible in EU 4, provided a large European nation conquers India or Persia or China. Especially the HRE conquering India would have really loved a Suez canal. The tech for both canals was available from Antiquity or early Middle Ages. Keep in mind that they wouldn't have needed something as large as the canals made today, but rather something allowing a light trade ship to go through - probably 10m deep, 30m wide would have been enough for all but the largest heavy ships.
Read this topic: die eu4 canals, die! :p, especially my, Tacticus01 and Konair0s' replies.

And then do you own research about existing canals, locks, digging technologies, etc.
 
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