How do you destroy a city or a barony?

[Fishy101]

After playing for almost 200 years. I checked and noticed that some of my counties had their baronies turned into cities. Basically the ruler, in this case the Doge destroyed the barony (county seat) and replaced it with a city. I can't figure out how to do this myself. I paid no attention when I get a Doge instead of a duke after awarding him with a duchy. The Doge never marries and has no heirs. There is nothing in the tutorial or the manual about destroying baronies either. I am totally flabbergasted that instead of an advanced barony able to defend it self for a while, I now have a city with almost no building in it that crumbles at the first sign of an attack. I was wondering how it was possible for an army of 400 to siege any of my counties at this late stage of the game.

Its really frustrating to see this happening. I didn't see this coming at all. I searched the forums but couldn't find the information. Please help. Thanks.

Also, how do I avoid getting a Doge again?

 

[Blitzzer]

The doge didn't destroy anything, he simply replaced the castle with a city as county capital. You will see the castle that was county capital among the other holdings in the county.
Revoke the county from the doge and grant it to whoever rules the castle. This will return the barony as the capital.

 

[Fishy101]

Thanks for the quick response. Is that the only way I can fix this? I am in the middle of a major revolt so Opinion really matters. Plus I have a bunch of Ambitions Kings and Dukes that somehow usurp/inherit their way into huge thorns in my side.

Also, how to I avoid getting a Doge in the future?

 

[Blitzzer]

Yep that's the only way. If you want to avoid opinion hits from your other vassals, fabricate a claim on the county. Then you can revoke it without issue. Well, the doge will hate your guts but that's about it.
As for avoiding doges, well, all you can really do is make sure you don't grant counties to mayors (characters who own a city). And that no mayors are heirs to higher titles.

 

[liamgamer55]

Yep that's the only way. If you want to avoid opinion hits from your other vassals, fabricate a claim on the county. Then you can revoke it without issue. Well, the doge will hate your guts but that's about it.
As for avoiding doges, well, all you can really do is make sure you don't grant counties to mayors (characters who own a city). And that no mayors are heirs to higher titles.

Alternatively you can revoke it with issue if you think the opinion/prestige penalty makes up for the drama it's costing you.

 

[Fishy101]

Thanks for the help. The queen of Sicily just revoked the title of one of the Doges. I hate her guts. She and her whole branch of the family have been nothing but trouble for me. They joined every rebellion against me if nothing else. But I'm so glad she revoked that title.

 

[hjarg]

Doges are useful though- you should keep at least some of them.
They give really nice boost of income!

 

[Tokie]

1/3 of my empire are assigned to Doges. It is almost cheating when I am earning 4000 gold/year from cities alone(and still growing!). Doge earns a 100% income bonus and more if they their capital is coastal. You can also tax them directly just like mayors in your demesne.

You also would not need to worry about succession crisis because there are none for republics. No one can get their land through inheritance.

The only problem is the opinion penalty and uncontrollable succession. Sometimes they will elect heirs who's culture is local to the county. If his culture is different to yours, you will take further opinion hits aswell.

 

[Kaiser Ludwig]

1/3 of my empire are assigned to Doges. It is almost cheating when I am earning 4000 gold/year from cities alone(and still growing!). Doge earns a 100% income bonus and more if they their capital is coastal. You can also tax them directly just like mayors in your demesne.

You also would not need to worry about succession crisis because there are none for republics. No one can get their land through inheritance.

The only problem is the opinion penalty and uncontrollable succession. Sometimes they will elect heirs who's culture is local to the county. If his culture is different to yours, you will take further opinion hits aswell.

This is true, but you can always give a check to the heir of the Republic, and if he's a different culture or ambitious he might find his inn to be filled with manure.

 

[Fishy101]

Thanks for all the tips guys. Didn't know Doges get extra income. All my Doges seem to have really bad stats and I can't exactly replace them with someone from my dynasty.


So I did manage to revoke one of the counties from one of the Doges. It was too much trouble. I think I'll just leave them alone.

 

[l3ol3o]

1/3 of my empire are assigned to Doges. It is almost cheating when I am earning 4000 gold/year from cities alone(and still growing!). Doge earns a 100% income bonus and more if they their capital is coastal. You can also tax them directly just like mayors in your demesne.

You also would not need to worry about succession crisis because there are none for republics. No one can get their land through inheritance.

The only problem is the opinion penalty and uncontrollable succession. Sometimes they will elect heirs who's culture is local to the county. If his culture is different to yours, you will take further opinion hits aswell.

This is the way to do it IMO. 1/3 of your Empire as Doges is a great mix. Personally I put Doges along the coastal areas and Dukes inland. The money you make from Doges is well worth it. You will have plenty of money for upgrading, hiring mercs, and reinforcing your retinue.

As you said culture can be a problem. If you establish a Doge in an area with a different culture the next Doge that gets elected likely won't be of your culture. So you will have the - modifier for wrong culture, the - modifier for wrong holding type, and the - modifier for any tax laws or crown laws. This makes it so Doges can dislike you pretty easily unless you have a good ruler. A Doge that doesn't like you is worthless since you won't get any money. Eventually the culture will start to change but this can take decades, even centuries. Because of this make sure you change your tax laws often so you don't have a pissed off doge. And make sure you kill ambitious Doge's ASAP. They are near impossible to keep happy unless you give them gifts but gifts to Doges can literally cost over 1k gold.

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

So let me ask this, if you have a duchy and give the Duke one county, and make all the other counties, Lord Mayors, will you still have all the inner kingdom wars?

 

[Typee]

The Duke will try to take the other counties if I'm not mistaken.
Lord-Mayors have no ambitions though.
It's a bit of a strange combination.

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

Ok, so that is why the 1/3 I am guessing. I am gonna try the lord mayor thing in a 1/3 and sounds like no real downside, but a big boost in gold, which = upgrading faster. Thanks guys!!

 

[Typee]

Ok, so that is why the 1/3 I am guessing. I am gonna try the lord mayor thing in a 1/3 and sounds like no real downside, but a big boost in gold, which = upgrading faster. Thanks guys!!

Wait, let me clarify something here. Doges are the equivalent of Dukes, only not noble.
If you give a Duke two Lord-Mayor vassals, you will get from him exactly as much money as you would from another Duke.
That is, usually, 0, naught, nada. (Or maybe 5% if you like to live dangerously).

What you want is to have a Doge : give the Duke title to a Mayor, ideally with Lord-Mayors under him.
That way you will take 30% of his income.

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

Ok ok, so lets Say I have Ulster, 4 counties, I make 4 lord Mayors, and then make one of them doge. This will be like normal, one vassal, but i should increase income? Do you have to increase Vassal tax for this to work?

 

[Typee]

Ok ok, so lets Say I have Ulster, 4 counties, I make 4 lord Mayors, and then make one of them doge. This will be like normal, one vassal, but i should increase income?

Correct.

Do you have to increase Vassal tax for this to work?

No, the Doge will pay the "cities" tax, not the "vassals" tax.

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

Awesome, thanks A lot, this should really help a lot!! I cannot wait to try this out!! LOL

 

[Tokie]

What you want is to have a Doge : give the Duke title to a Mayor, ideally with Lord-Mayors under him.
That way you will take 30% of his income.

This is correct. If you give a Duke 2 Lord-Mayors, that duke will be rich because he is getting the income from those counties. However he is likely to have a rebellion on his hand in the foreseeable future because the AIs are not very good rulers.

You can also impose taxes on feudal lord to nab a portion of the tax he is getting, but it is insignificant compare to taxing directing from a Doge.

Ok, so that is why the 1/3 I am guessing. I am gonna try the lord mayor thing in a 1/3 and sounds like no real downside, but a big boost in gold, which = upgrading faster. Thanks guys!!

You wouldn't want too many Doge because it makes succession crisis EXTREMELY dangerous. Most republics are allies with their neighbors so you will have to be extra careful about factions on every succession.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

I used to abuse Doges this way, but I don't anymore with the new patch. I now use them sparingly. A few things to keep in mind:

1. Doges are very rebellious to start with -- they get an extra relationship penalty. If you use harsh city taxes, which you probably do, this gets even worse.

2. If you put them in a wrong culture county, the newly elected doge will mostly be the culture of the county and not yours. That's an extra penalty. And the county will never culture change so it will never be fixed.

3. When faction wars break out, your doges will be very likely to join. So a realm with a lot of doges means constant faction rebellions when you get a new ruler or something similar.

The money is great. But I just don't think all these penalties are worth it now. I would rather use feudal taxes, with it's small penalty, than have 1/3 of my realm on a hair trigger to revolt at all times -- mostly just when I really don't want them to. It's up to you.

If you're going to use doges, you should probably use counts first to culture convert the duchy. Only then revoke and install the doge.

An extra tip -- if you're doing this, make sure the Doge holds as many cities directly. So every city in the duchy is his personally. Otherwise he's only taking a portion of the taxes from his vassal cities, and passing a portion of that to you. If you're going to deal with him, make sure you're getting as much as possible from him.

In you're Orthodox, you might also consider harsh church taxes and bishops instead. No tax bonus, but reasonable money and far less rebellious. You're trading money for stability here. It's often a decent trade off. Just don't do this if you're Catholic unless you can be sure that bishop won't like the pope more and give you nothing, ruining the plan.