How Do You Cosplay Ancient Greece?
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the worst part about off-topic political discussions in threads is resisting joining in
On-topic, I agree with @mudcrabmerchant
On-topic, I agree with @mudcrabmerchant
Filthy molluscoid! How could you betray your own kind!? You all shall pay!! *being dragged into the ministry of derailing suppression*
I think the concepts we have implemented in the game are too modern to comfortably fit on a faithful portrait of Ancient/Classical Greece. They'd probably be Spiritualist, but what else? Maybe Militarist, maybe Authoritarian if you don't take Athens as the model. Government would be Oligarchic or Autocratic, I think - certainly not Democratic as we see democracy today and as (IMHO) it's implemented in the game, even taking Athens into account.
I made a Steam guide on how to do "Imitation Empires". Of particular interest for you would be the slavery section:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=689073779
Litereally everyone used slavery in that age, it was a nessesity of the time. Unless it was an exceptional level of useage, I would just ignore it in the planning.
While the Greek had religion, they were not very serious about it. "Rules to live by - if not too much of a bother." If somebody had proposed to make a Holy War to spread thier religion, that one would have been considered a madman.
So I would rather put them on the Materialist Side. We do remember them best for the various breakthroughs (wich were preserved for us by the Arab world).
Now, that i think of it: robots could be a viable stand in for slaves in a classical Greek inspired star empire.
You could have AI servitude for slaves and be even egalitarian otherwise.
After all robots will end the need for organic slaves.
Spiritual won't be that synergistic then, tho.
You could have AI servitude for slaves and be even egalitarian otherwise.
After all robots will end the need for organic slaves.
Spiritual won't be that synergistic then, tho.
If you want an ancient greek theme, you cannot go wrong with this setup for Sparta.
Depending on which city-state you're planning to use, simply replace fanatic militarist with materialist/militarist or spiritualist/militarist combos. Xenophobe should stay though.
Depending on which city-state you're planning to use, simply replace fanatic militarist with materialist/militarist or spiritualist/militarist combos. Xenophobe should stay though.
Three problems I run into when seriously answering this question.
First, which Greece? Or specifically, which city state of Greece? I'd play Sparta differently than Athens, who I'd play different than Minos, who I'd play differently than Corinth, who I'd play differently than Alexander's Macedonia.
Secondly, how do we consider Greeks of other tribes, as other Greeks or as a different species? Sparta enslaved the Helots and built their entire economy on the backs of that enslaved tribe, while having never dreamed of enslaving fellow Spartans. In spirit this is Xenophobic, and I'd play this as Syncretic Evolution Xenophobia. But if you consider Helots as the same species, just more Greeks, than in practice this could be imitated by the Authoritarian Caste system ethos. Athens rose to prominence through diplomatic maneuvering and trade within Greece. To play a power that comes to prominence through diplomatic maneuvering and trade would be to play Xenophile and maybe Pacifist. On the other hand Athens treated foreigners who weren't Greek like savages, which would certainly justify Xenophobia. It's hard to just say "only treat foreigners like Aliens" when most of the Greek city states were only ever impressive within the boundaries of Greece.
Thirdly, do we make allowances for the times they live in? Sure, by modern standards Athens was not egalitarian at all. By the standards of the time, Athens was so terrifyingly egalitarian that Sparta was able to use terror at the spread of democracy as a recruiting tool during the Peloponnese wars. By modern standards, Corinthians were a conniving cunning lot who would stab their own grandmother in the back, and who changed sides twice during the Peloponnese war. By the standards of the time they were still that, but also willing to treat Thebeans well up until they tried to conquer Thebes. I'm not really trying to make a point there, it's just that for all people's talk of Athen's duplicity, nobody ever remembers to mention that Ancient Corinth were a bunch of a-holes.
First, which Greece? Or specifically, which city state of Greece? I'd play Sparta differently than Athens, who I'd play different than Minos, who I'd play differently than Corinth, who I'd play differently than Alexander's Macedonia.
Secondly, how do we consider Greeks of other tribes, as other Greeks or as a different species? Sparta enslaved the Helots and built their entire economy on the backs of that enslaved tribe, while having never dreamed of enslaving fellow Spartans. In spirit this is Xenophobic, and I'd play this as Syncretic Evolution Xenophobia. But if you consider Helots as the same species, just more Greeks, than in practice this could be imitated by the Authoritarian Caste system ethos. Athens rose to prominence through diplomatic maneuvering and trade within Greece. To play a power that comes to prominence through diplomatic maneuvering and trade would be to play Xenophile and maybe Pacifist. On the other hand Athens treated foreigners who weren't Greek like savages, which would certainly justify Xenophobia. It's hard to just say "only treat foreigners like Aliens" when most of the Greek city states were only ever impressive within the boundaries of Greece.
Thirdly, do we make allowances for the times they live in? Sure, by modern standards Athens was not egalitarian at all. By the standards of the time, Athens was so terrifyingly egalitarian that Sparta was able to use terror at the spread of democracy as a recruiting tool during the Peloponnese wars. By modern standards, Corinthians were a conniving cunning lot who would stab their own grandmother in the back, and who changed sides twice during the Peloponnese war. By the standards of the time they were still that, but also willing to treat Thebeans well up until they tried to conquer Thebes. I'm not really trying to make a point there, it's just that for all people's talk of Athen's duplicity, nobody ever remembers to mention that Ancient Corinth were a bunch of a-holes.
Contrary to what most people believe, Sparta's form of government was more similar with today's parliamentary democracy than the Athenean.
Contrary to what most people believe, Sparta's form of government was more similar with today's parliamentary democracy than the Athenean.
Being more "parlamentary" does not necessarily make them more democratic and if they still do not fulfill either the modern and ancient standards then I don't see why they would count as democratic.
The thing is that universal Citizenship is actually a highly new-age thing.
The post-rebellion USA is widely regarded as a democracy. But there were large groups that were neither slaves nor citizen. In that time Citzen meant owning land. The Farmhands working the land were not Citzens.
Birthright Citizenship has been common law in England and the colonies since before the Revolution.
What you're talking about is suffrage, or voting rights, which is not the same thing.
I've seen a lot of misconceptions in this thread, but I'm just going to address this one, then make my own proposition.
It would be better to say that there were many, many kinds of slavery in the antiquity, and among them, some would not be considered as slavery today.
The Greeks were very, very serious about religion. Contrarily to what I've read in an other comment in this thread, Socrates was not condemned because he was corrupting the young, but for blasphemy. There were all kinds of things considered as blasphemy in ancient greece, and in many cases the punition was death.
Now for the materialism - they really not compare with modern day science and technology. Yes there were discoveries, but they were very rarely applied to technology.
Now let's look at each ethics:
Egalitarian : every pop tends to have the same rights. Obviously doesn't work.
Authoritarian : a hierarchical society. Free people on the top, a caste system. Works very well with the greeks : usually you can observe a dominant class made of rich people, the you have the urban citizen, then the country citizen etc until you reach the slaves. Maybe not fanatical authoritarian but still.
Xenophile : as already mentionned in this thread, the greeks didn't really love strangers.
Xenophobe : But they didn't hate them at all. The policemen in Athens were Scythians. Many greeks citizens have been married with greeks from other city states or even barbarians (beginning with Pericles). And it really depended on which greeks (some greek states actually allied with Persia, for instance), and which strangers. Strangers were just not members of the ruling class - but in Stellaris that would make the Greeks authoritarian, not xenophobe. On my opinion, Greeks cannot really be considered as xenophiles or xenophobes in Stellaris, but they would certainly be considered as xenophiles more than as xenophobes.
Militarist : I think that it's a given. Being a citizen meant being a fighter, and ancient greece exalted the values of combat. The Greeks weren't really warmongers in general though, so not fanatical militarists.
Pacifist : there are cases of pacifism among greek city states. But generally it's either situational (they didn't want to make a certain war) or rational (it's useless to fight that specific enemy so let's not). That's not really pacifism.
Materialist : Science, yes. But technology ? Well, there were definitely some technological improvements. But really it doesn't qualify as materialism in Stellaris.
Spiritualist : As I already said, religion was very important in ancient Greece. And not only because blasphemy could get you killed - citizenship and tribes were directly linked to religion. As you grew up, you went through different religious and sacred steps. The Agorai were among the most important places in the city states, and most of the buildings you foudn there were religious. And even when you read the philosophers, you'll see that atheism was not a thing and that most of them were really pious, with only a few exceptions. They would definitely be fanatical spiritualist.
In conclusion, I would say :
- Fanatical Spiritualist + Authoritarian or Militarist
- Spiritualist + Authoritarian + Militarist
It would be better to say that there were many, many kinds of slavery in the antiquity, and among them, some would not be considered as slavery today.
The Greeks were very, very serious about religion. Contrarily to what I've read in an other comment in this thread, Socrates was not condemned because he was corrupting the young, but for blasphemy. There were all kinds of things considered as blasphemy in ancient greece, and in many cases the punition was death.
Now for the materialism - they really not compare with modern day science and technology. Yes there were discoveries, but they were very rarely applied to technology.
Now let's look at each ethics:
Egalitarian : every pop tends to have the same rights. Obviously doesn't work.
Authoritarian : a hierarchical society. Free people on the top, a caste system. Works very well with the greeks : usually you can observe a dominant class made of rich people, the you have the urban citizen, then the country citizen etc until you reach the slaves. Maybe not fanatical authoritarian but still.
Xenophile : as already mentionned in this thread, the greeks didn't really love strangers.
Xenophobe : But they didn't hate them at all. The policemen in Athens were Scythians. Many greeks citizens have been married with greeks from other city states or even barbarians (beginning with Pericles). And it really depended on which greeks (some greek states actually allied with Persia, for instance), and which strangers. Strangers were just not members of the ruling class - but in Stellaris that would make the Greeks authoritarian, not xenophobe. On my opinion, Greeks cannot really be considered as xenophiles or xenophobes in Stellaris, but they would certainly be considered as xenophiles more than as xenophobes.
Militarist : I think that it's a given. Being a citizen meant being a fighter, and ancient greece exalted the values of combat. The Greeks weren't really warmongers in general though, so not fanatical militarists.
Pacifist : there are cases of pacifism among greek city states. But generally it's either situational (they didn't want to make a certain war) or rational (it's useless to fight that specific enemy so let's not). That's not really pacifism.
Materialist : Science, yes. But technology ? Well, there were definitely some technological improvements. But really it doesn't qualify as materialism in Stellaris.
Spiritualist : As I already said, religion was very important in ancient Greece. And not only because blasphemy could get you killed - citizenship and tribes were directly linked to religion. As you grew up, you went through different religious and sacred steps. The Agorai were among the most important places in the city states, and most of the buildings you foudn there were religious. And even when you read the philosophers, you'll see that atheism was not a thing and that most of them were really pious, with only a few exceptions. They would definitely be fanatical spiritualist.
In conclusion, I would say :
- Fanatical Spiritualist + Authoritarian or Militarist
- Spiritualist + Authoritarian + Militarist
Frankly surprised nobody has done it yet.
This brings up something very important: when can I get my crystal spires and togas?
I could argue about the similarities between the democratic governments of then and now, but I won't since it's not that much relevant in this case.
The only relevance is the term of the elected leaders, and since in Stellaris each democratic term is 10 years while oligarchic is 40-50 years (don't really remember) I would say that when it comes to Sparta in particular, the oligarchic government type is more appropriate since the members of Gerousia were elected for life.
I would still hold onto the Nationalistic Zeal & Citizen Service for all different city states though.
With regards to Materialist I think people were thinking in relative terms, sure by our standards they were not materialists, but by the standards of the age they lived in they very much were.
I'd also still say they leaned towards being Xenophobes as a whole, their antipathy to foreigners was quite strong when compared to contempary civilisations like the Phoenicians or Persians. And those Scythians policemen you mention were mercenaries i believe, hired precisely because of their intimidating reputation amoung Greeks, thats hardly a sign of xenophillia.