How do you break through the Low Countries as Germany?

[ladner]

Perhaps I'm just the worst HOI 4 player, but this has become a real problem for me, frankly it is taking the enjoyment out of the game. In particular the massive ahistorical flood of British infantry that pours in through the ports.

To begin with I have a real problem with Luxembourg. This serves as a traffic light stop sign for all intent and purposes. Because of the front mechanic, nice in principle, not so great in practice you get stuck, have to form a new front then push on. Yeah I know "git-gud" you need to micro. Even microing this becomes a chore. The other issue is the great wall of Wallonia on the one province next to Germany. This tends to have 8 divisions, massively dug in, and I have seen soft defense values of over 1000 on some of the divisions. There is zero, room for maneuver, breaking through to Sedan, is at least for me damn near impossible. I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the map in this area, and it is only exacerbated by the 80W (W = width) for combat.

Lastly the massive RAF commitment is just pure garbage and has no basis in the reality of the how the war was fought, or the actual constraints that the UK faced. Time and time again, there are over 2.5-3k fighters, and in some instances the first of a couple hundred fighter II's (i.e Spitfires).

I really like this game, some of the things that I thought made it more realistic though, however, I don't think do much of anything. The varied equipment doesn't seem to mean much. From this forum, HOI4 reddit, or the steam community you see over and over again the same equipment and templates. You build a historical template you get punished, everything comes down to 10W, 20W or 40W and the same set up for armor 6 med armor 4 motorized, 10 infantry with support, or 7 infantry 2 artillery, or 14 infantry 4 artillery.

Realize I just ranted, but frustrated after multiple starts and the same thing over and over. May just hit the easy button and play UK/US from now on.

 

[coffeelingfine]

Something that helps for me is not declaring on all of the low countries at once. I declare on Netherlands first, then Belgium, then Luxembourg, capitulating them one at a time as quickly as possible

That way you don't have to deal with a large front

 

[blahmaster6k]

Two things will make you win every war you fight: Have more planes than the enemy, and have good tank divisions and CAS. I put 15 factories on fighters and 5 on CAS from day 1, and rush to medium tank 2. 15 factories on fighters from game start will lead to you having about 3-5k fighters by the time war starts. 40 width tanks will sweep aside anything the AI throws at you in pretty much any terrain as long as you have fuel. A good tank template is 13 medium tank / 7 motorized, with land doctrine superior firepower right-left. Make sure your land doctrine is always being researched until completion, and prioritize spending army xp to speed up doctrine research.

The reason almost anything other than 10, 20, or 40 width divisions doesn't work is because of the combat width being 80 by default for a single province attack. The over combat width penalty makes using any width that isn't a factor of 80 crippling to your division stats. Another thing is to make sure your troops and air wings are all exercised to regular before the war starts, there's a massive difference between -25% and +25% to all combat stats.

EDIT: For planes, make sure to upgrade the engine to level 5 as soon as possible and build radars that cover the air regions you expect to be fighting in, this will let you win favorable trades in the air war much more effectively and will see the enemy air force dwindling and destroyed in short order.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Yah, it sounds like enemy air superiority is a big problem. To counteract it you’ll need a larger focus on fighters and/or aa and spaa in your divisions. With air superiority, like Germany actually had, your historical divisions should be considerably more viable against the ai.

As for Luxembourg, declare on them first and march in manually before anything can reinforce them. It’s one tile, so not too much micro at all. As others have said, you can declare on and capitulate Netherlands and Luxembourg before moving on Belgium and you’ll have a much broader front with better terrain. Ideally break through before French/British reinforcements arrive.

Also, attacking from multiple directions increases combat width.

 

[Simon_9732495]

If you want easy mode -> Blitzkrieg them:

1. Build a good Medium Tank Division. (If you are not sure if yours is good, post it)
2. If you are ready for Benelux and France put all fighters you have over the Benelux with order air superiority.
3. Declare on the Netherlands, rush to Amsterdam with Tanks from the North and Tanks from center. After Amsterdam clear up the victory points around it and win. Campain should be over in less than a week. No Brits should be there. Maybe even no enemy planes arrived. (No CAS needed.)
4. Rush your Tanks to the border of Belgium in the very west next to the Sea. Don't wait too long for declaring, because the Belgians will cover the border. You want to catch them moving. Give your Infantry attack order on Belgium (they are not in place yet) and activate it.
5. If your Tanks reached the border and have > 70% org declare on Belgium. Rush down along the coast (unopposed).
6. You reach the border of France. 1 of the Tanks goes along the coast to Dieppe, Le Havre. The rest of the Tanks is divded in 2 groups. 1 take Brussels and then the rest of Belgium (use CAS for Brussel and Belgium). The other 1 rush Paris. Be careful for encirclements. The french are moving west now. If you see divisions on the flanks of your tanks push them back first. And rush Infantry in with strat redeploy.
7. France should capitulate in another week or two. You may not need planes over France at all. But if Belgium is stable (only few tiles left that are hard to take) you can move all planes to France.
8. You can leave Luxembourg alone until it finishes the generic focuses and builds all civs mils and infrastructure and take them in 1941. Or just declare and take them now.

My record was 4 days from declaration against the Netherlands to the Fall of France (and Belgium and Netherlands) with that strategy. (Was with the insane speed light tanks of this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-tank-blitz-idea.1399558/page-4#post-26673440 but you should do "normal" Mediums)
If you are fast the british have no time to help the french.

 

[Eh up me duck]

I wouldn't feel too bad about this - the low countries is very hard to crack until you know what you're doing, at which point it becomes easy.

Obviously air superiority is great and all however it's not strictly necessary (though of course aspire for it anyway) so long as you have decent tank divisions. You want a mix of medium and medium artillery, probably about 2 to 1 ratio. This will crush anything the allies have at their disposal.

Tactically, dont plan too specifically with your armour. Let your infantry attack and then concentrate your armoured divisions at the weak point, then rush through and exploit.

Don't feel like you have to emulate real life success. In hoi 4 the forested area where Germany broke through irl is often very well defended, I usually find north east Belgium is the weakest point on the line.

Once you've created a few encirclements, france should be a push over. Just concentrate your armour into a flat unrivered province and take a couple of victory points and they'll surrender.

Additionally aim for a handful of motorised divisions to "breadcrumb'" your armoured thrusts. They don't have to be great, just hold the line long enough for your infantry to rush through.

I hope this has been helpful! Would you be able to post your armoured division template? That's definitely a pretty crucial component.

 

[ladner]

realize this is suboptimal on width, at the time had an issue with regards to land experience and did not have enough mediums built for a bigger template, looking at the hardness there is a problem. Had been following the CIC build up thread so thought, I had decent industry, was close to the results posted there, but may have spent too many resources on the spy game. WIth regards to equipment I have large amount. The air battle ranges from red to yellow to green and back. The real kick in the teeth was thinking I could do a coup-de-main with paratroopers only to have them sit at the airfield due to red/yellow air.

 

[ladner]

I am beginning to realize I made significant mistakes with my acquired land experience. Foremost being not making a 40W armor template.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Yep it's suboptimal, but the width is not the biggest concern.

Take a look at this: All 1939 tech + Panzer IV (Medium Tank2):

You need to research for it:

• Panzer IV (Medium Tank 2) with 5 Upgrades to Main Gun and 2 to Reliability (If you don't have the XP for that -> no problem)
• Mobile Warfare Land doctrine, right path until "Blitzkrieg". (You have to research 5 doctrines in 3.5 years and have 2 to 4 100% buffs from Army Innovations)
• (I used 1939 Infantry equipment, Artillery and Engineers but that is not important. 1936 tech works as well)

Note that this Tank is 3 times as expensive as yours. But it's worth it:

• Hardness 70% vs. 50% -> You take 40% less damage from soft attack
• Breakthrough 1105 vs. 238 -> Even under bad conditions you will only get 10% of enemy damage instead of 40% (Again 75% less damage)
• Armor 60 vs. 28 -> You will not get pierced (maybe also not with 28 ...)
• Soft Attack 523 vs. 175 -> 3 times more punch

3 of these tanks should be enough for the strategy I describe above. It will be hard to get them until Mid 1939, because you need to research Medium 2 before you can start producing and need 2250 Tanks for 3 divisions.

And that's the point where the fun of HOI4 starts:

• You can go hard into MILs and Tanks to produce them as fast as possible
• You can do mixed Templates to fill up your divisions for example with Light Tanks
• You can research Self propelled artillery for cheaper templates (SPArt is cheaper because you need less vehicles per batallion)
• You can go more into CIVs and micro Netherlands and Belgium with Infantry because you don't have Tanks ready yet.
• You can attack Benelux and France later and do a "Sitzkrieg" (phoney war).

//Edit:
With SPArt it could look like this:

Spoiler: Another template

• Hardness down to 57%
• Breakthrough down to 624
• Soft Attack about the same with 533
• But 20% cheaper. You need only 400 Tanks and 144 SPGs for this.

 

[Fireforce20]

I had similar trouble to the OP as a paradox beginner with HoI4 but found the consecutive low countries approach Netherlands/Luxembourg then Belgium to work. It is a tad frustrating that the likes of the Ardennes armoured thrusts and the race to Sedan of history are difficult if not impossible to replicate with the often huge buildup at he Belgian/German border (I even found on one occasion well into double figures of infantry). Not recently as I have been doing ahistorical but previous runs have seen the UK with 3K fighters in place which has pretty much squashed any chance of success in my experience.

I tend to stay away from the optimising of divisions to the common 10,20 and 40W reported and have had reasonably good success ratios building historical templates, generally to 30W. I've never had for example one of the huge armoured formations described in the thread, 13 x armour is more like a corps quantity of tanks than a historical armoured division. I do create heavy assault/shock infantry templates of 40W which look like 12/4/2 incorporating SPART and armour which in combo with fortress buster and a focus on Strat bombing forts have been able to breakthrough maginot on occasion. But generally I focus 40W at potential breakthrough points and have smaller standardised divisions along the whole front and 20W armour.

I find the most enjoyment in utilising as much of the array of equipment as possible and having a variety of divisions/roles and have been able to find a style of play that gives me a reasonable chance of success without optimising everything to death

 

[Petite]

1.7 no MOD MEDIUM SETTINGS
with 36 light speed Tank Divisions á 2*PzII/2*Wespe/2*trucks

Lost ~ 4K Manpower and some equip

 

[ladner]

Just out of curiosity with that large paratrooper army, how many transport air wings do you have? I couldn’t get a single standard size unit to airdrop with green air, but had failed to build up transport. Made use of the glider command point ability though.

 

[sekelsenmat]

I've been studying the issue and I can get 100% success with this approach. I take Belgium & France bypassing the Netherlands, like in ww1:

We have only 2 provinces of border. The Belgian province has a doom stack and is invincible. Let's encircle & destroy it:

1> Put tons of troops around the Belgium province, mostly infantry. I use 8 inf.
2> Put your large & strong Tank force near Luxembourg. I use 6 Panzer (4 light tank, 2 l spg, 2 Medium Tank, 3 Motorized), 6 Cav and 6 Motorized (9 Mot, 1 Mot Art) divisions
3> Put tons of troops (I use 17 inf) behind the Tank force, they will move to Luxembourg once it is taken.
4> Optional: Put paratroopers with orders to take the space behind the belgian doom stack.

Now it is time to attack:

1-> Declare war on Belgium & Luxembourg. Pause the game.
2->Issue all attack orders as described above. Remember to attack the French forts to prevent them from reinforcing Luxembourg.
3->Put tons of fighters in the Low Countries, also CAS and TAC

Once you arrive at Luxembourg don't stop! Keep moving your Tanks & Motorized & Cavalry!!! Move everywhere you can. Encircle and kill. Keep doing it.

I usually encircle all of Belgium. With Belgium gone you can do the same vs France.

 

[kettyo]

But 20% cheaper. You need only 400 Tanks and 144 SPGs for this.

I'd go with this one as it has a very similar effectiveness to the 15/5 template but being 20% cheaper is a major benefit as you can have 20% more of this.

 

[ladner]

Sekelsenmat - I have been neglecting the spoiling attack at Metz. I have noticed from prior games the AI mounts a counter attack from here into Luxembourg, this stalls the advance. I will have to look at your screenshots later. Pinning those units with a spoiling attack would be worthwhile. At least until movement into the adjacent Belgian province is complete. Just out of curiosity how heavy are your casualties from the spoiling attack?

 

[sekelsenmat]

Lastly the massive RAF commitment is just pure garbage and has no basis in the reality of the how the war was fought, or the actual constraints that the UK faced. Time and time again, there are over 2.5-3k fighters, and in some instances the first of a couple hundred fighter II's (i.e Spitfires).

I really like this game, some of the things that I thought made it more realistic though, however, I don't think do much of anything. The varied equipment doesn't seem to mean much. From this forum, HOI4 reddit, or the steam community you see over and over again the same equipment and templates. You build a historical template you get punished, everything comes down to 10W, 20W or 40W and the same set up for armor 6 med armor 4 motorized, 10 infantry with support, or 7 infantry 2 artillery, or 14 infantry 4 artillery.

Yes, I also hate the "combat width exceeded debuff", but it is not the end of the world. My screenshots are from a Veteran-difficulty game, and my units are:

Panzer 22 width: 4 light arm, 2 med arm, 3 mot, 2 l spg
Cavalry 8 width: 4 cav, unmodified
Infantry: 21 width: 9 inf, 1 art + support unmodified from game start
Tower-symbol infantry: 18 width unmodified from game start
Motorized: 18 width: 9 mot unmodified from game start

I was targeting actually 26 or 27 width for the Panzers, but didn't have yet enough tanks to fill it... I'm not sure what the historical Panzer would be since it changed a lot during the war, but I would never do one bellow 20width due to the game mechanics.

My first 2 focuses were the tank treaty to start Medium Armor.

I put 1/3 of my MILs into Fighters always, so I have 1.2k in the Low Countries vs the 2k of the allies. I have more fighter then that, but I think I forgot to build enough airfields.

Sekelsenmat - I have been neglecting the spoiling attack at Metz. I have noticed from prior games the AI mounts a counter attack from here into Luxembourg, this stalls the advance. I will have to look at your screenshots later. Pinning those units with a spoiling attack would be worthwhile. At least until movement into the adjacent Belgian province is complete. Just out of curiosity how heavy are your casualties from the spoiling attack?

The spoiling attack doesn't prevent their counter-attack, but they get a -50% in multiple attack modifier. How exactly should I measure the casualties? Tanks lost? I think the casualties are insignificant, my Tanks are always together with Motorized & Cavalry divisions, so they don't take big loses, and I immediately start moving a stack of 17 infantry into Luxembourg, and I immediately order my Tanks: Half "retreat" into the place taken by the paratrooper behind the Belgium doom-stack and the other half to attack another belgish empty province. I just need to get over 100% to get out of Luxembourg and it takes like 1 day or something.

I have 300 TAC & 200 CAS in the Low Countries to help. I do have much more CAS but again, no range, no airfields near...

 

[ladner]

Yes, I also hate the "combat width exceeded debuff", but it is not the end of the world. My screenshots are from a Veteran-difficulty game, and my units are:

Panzer 22 width: 4 light arm, 2 med arm, 3 mot, 2 l spg
Cavalry 8 width: 4 cav, unmodified
Infantry: 21 width: 9 inf, 1 art + support unmodified from game start
Tower-symbol infantry: 18 width unmodified from game start
Motorized: 18 width: 9 mot unmodified from game start

I was targeting actually 26 or 27 width for the Panzers, but didn't have yet enough tanks to fill it... I'm not sure what the historical Panzer would be since it changed a lot during the war, but I would never do one bellow 20width due to the game mechanics.

My first 2 focuses were the tank treaty to start Medium Armor.

I put 1/3 of my MILs into Fighters always, so I have 1.2k in the Low Countries vs the 2k of the allies. I have more fighter then that, but I think I forgot to build enough airfields.



The spoiling attack doesn't prevent their counter-attack, but they get a -50% in multiple attack modifier. How exactly should I measure the casualties? Tanks lost? I think the casualties are insignificant, my Tanks are always together with Motorized & Cavalry divisions, so they don't take big loses, and I immediately start moving a stack of 17 infantry into Luxembourg, and I immediately order my Tanks: Half "retreat" into the place taken by the paratrooper behind the Belgium doom-stack and the other half to attack another belgish empty province. I just need to get over 100% to get out of Luxembourg and it takes like 1 day or something.

I have 300 TAC & 200 CAS in the Low Countries to help. I do have much more CAS but again, no range, no airfields near...

Was just interested in rough order of magnitude of men lost. I know from prior botched Low Country campaigns were I’ve lost half a million men, after taking Paris have probably lost the war since the Axis cannot won a war of attrition. Of course I have not progressed to Barbarossa

 

[sekelsenmat]

Was just interested in rough order of magnitude of men lost. I know from prior botched Low Country campaigns were I’ve lost half a million men, after taking Paris have probably lost the war since the Axis cannot won a war of attrition. Of course I have not progressed to Barbarossa

Here is the end state of my 3-week Blitz through Belgium. France fell 2 weeks later. I was sloppy and my infantry is very far behind from my Tanks, it would have been better if I had microed the infantry better. I got the achievement "True Blitzkrieg" in this game.

I did repeat this a few times, and attacking the French Forts is really the key. If the french reinforce Luxembourg, then I also get bogged down and it is impossible to proceed. But if you prevent the reinforcement, the win is guaranteed with good micro.

And my casualties at this point. I'm at 1st May in this game, and now I have 209k casualties versus 1.7 million of combined allies casualties. Part of my high casualties is because I did a fully historical attack on Poland, using the same amount of divisions and generals. Zero optimization. Also the pincher attacks against Belgium doom stack and French Forts of course that those are suicide attacks which will generate tons of casualties.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

Its very easy

- Dont need rush medium tanks, or 40w.
- U cant declare war on them all
- Dont need rush any OP stuff/tech.

Just blitz correctly i always do in historical date( 10-may-1940 ) with 20w divisions.

If u blitz u dont let them over-stack, just this.

-France AI have stacked troops on Maginot Line,
-once u declare war on Benelux, they will try move troops,
-u should pin them from luxembourg,
-so they dont reinforce Netherlands/Belgium fronts, u shoul focus your blitz from there, there will be few oposition to tanks, and u run freely to nothern France.

Correctly blitzing u rarely get more than 20k ~ 50k casualties.

Your error is just letting France AI stack troops.

I did a post on the past explaining it with maps, basically same approach of @sekelsenmat :

The Luxembourg pin strategy ilustrated

My record to make France fall is 10 days. - I start on historical date 10/may/1940 - Dont invited italy, force France to "double front" is too cheap. - Historical invasion starting invading by Benelux, dont did early wars. ... -The strategy is...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

here the screenshot of my 9~10 days record,

 

[sekelsenmat]

If u blitz u dont let them over-stack, just this.

-France AI have stacked troops on Maginot Line,
-once u declare war on Benelux, they will try move troops,
-u should pin them from luxembourg,
-so they dont reinforce Netherlands/Belgium fronts, u shoul focus your blitz from there, there will be few oposition to tanks, and u run freely to nothern France.
.....
here the screenshot of my 9~10 days record,

Yes, your strategy is great, but I'm not sure if this is also the OP's issue too, but at least I, would like to recreate the historical "Ardennes" path, encircling the French in Belgium.