How do we solve a problem like Korea?

[SignedName]

Yes, it's not impossible. Korea was able to conquer border parts of Manchuria, build forts, and culturally converting the locals, but the deeper they go the harder it will become. Korea could have pushed further, but at high cost and nearly no return benefits. The people of Manchuria were not very tax productive, and there weren't a lot of them. Settling in Manchuria would not be a favourable proposition for the vast majority of Koreans.

Jin(Manchus) got Mongol'ed is your answer. When Jin first formed they defeated the Liao empire and moved everything to Dadu. But the cycle of horde rise and fall went around and it was their turn, they lost China and lost pretty much everything.

That's more of a problem with basic game mechanics than anything that can be balanced on a national level, though, isn't it? In EUIV terms, there's no such thing as unproductive land, and even if it was "unproductive" it could be instantly developed to produce a profit.

 

[Zerodv]

How do you model a situation where a 5-6 million people nation regularly gets slapped around by a 200k people nation?
Manchu was a highly militaristic government with basically every single adult male a capable soldier, which was also true when the Manchu Jin first rose to dominate northern Asia 500 years ago.

Of the 200k manchu population, they raised some 40-60k men. If Prussia was an "army with a state", Manchu was an "army that IS the state".

What they could start with is having the Manchus not suffer a penalty in mountains and woods, they were really at home in those situations.

The Manchu had WAY more than 200k people, they surely had less than Korea but not so litlle.

 

[ywxiao]

The Manchu had WAY more than 200k people, they surely had less than Korea but not so litlle.

You are probably right, but there is no way to tell for sure. Even the Manchu rulers don't know exactly how many people there were, but the ones they could count as their productive subjects were just a bit over 200k. Look at it this way, if Nurhaci, Dorgon, Huangtaiji could not control more than 200k, other nations that rule over these lands probably won't either.

 

[Zephyrum]

Anyone considered giving Jianzhou and Haixi tribal feds or some monarchy (or a unique government) while keeping Yeren a horde? From what I can tell, the Yeren were closer to nomadic than the other jurchens, and this would solve the issue of horde players' complaints about lack of hordes.

 

[solidprice]

I have a simple question:

As Korea, why shouldn't I accecp korean as a side culture and shift to Manchu or Chinese?


It's out there like Irish atm....

 

[ahyangyi]

I have a simple question:
As Korea, why shouldn't I accecp korean as a side culture and shift to Manchu or Chinese?
It's out there like Irish atm....

Many countries in this game have this problem, where cultural shifting then tag switching is such a clearly better idea than not. Forming Persia for example was a strong move even for non-Persian-culture countries because of the many free cores.

Specifically for roleplaying a Korea that somehow decide to form China though, there's some historical stuff about it.

 

[colinljx]

It's exactly this "solve a problem" kind of thinking that made EU4 worse and worse. There are many problems in EU4 that causes poor horde performance, and there is not a single magic fix like "Korea fix", the horde AIs are, the main culprit among the many. And what is with all these people that want fantasy imagination in Europe but history railroading everywhere else?

 

[Zerodv]

It's exactly this "solve a problem" kind of thinking that made EU4 worse and worse. Korea is not a problem, the horde AIs are. And what is with all these people that want fantasy imagination in Europe but history railroading everywhere else?

Because general EU4 mechanics tend to work best for Europe(well not all but I'd argue stuff like diplomacy works more in Europe at least) and this allows people to want more fantasy scenarios that don't end up happening either too often or happening because some inherent imbalance in the system.

In East Asia though, considering there are less tags and Korea tends to win often it effectively means that players keep seeing this unbalanced scenario where Manchu can't ever really leave a mark in the world like even trying to invade the Ming or Mongolia or Korea.

Also how the hell would changing the Horde(Manchus aren't nomads) AI fix anything, when historically the Jurchen tribes were indeed semi-vassalized or generally controlled by the Ming, the problem is not that they are acting weirdly or are too weak(inherently so) but that their geographical location doesn't offer the advantages it should, the Koreans should have an harder time invading and the Ming should have an harder time staying in indefinitely.

 

[colinljx]

...Also how the hell would changing the Horde(Manchus aren't nomads) AI fix anything, ...

The horde AIs of Manchu love fighting in the mountains against Korea and lose there repeatedly due to the negative modifier hordes get for none flat terrain. (The more you know~)

Btw, the people like OP who are complaining about Korea don't care about those historical reasoning you mentioned. I know, I know, but my word of advice is: don't argue with those fools that don't care. (They just want to nerf everything around Manchu till Manchu wins everytime)

 

[Ulfing]

but that their geographical location doesn't offer the advantages it should, the Koreans should have an harder time invading and the Ming should have an harder time staying in indefinitely.

Its the same issue with Ottoman sprawl into the steppe, personally. Some modifiers and AI tweaks to make steppe land vastly more productive for horde governments and unproductive + AI aversion for the non-Horde governments might discourage AI expansions like this across the world. Special rules for Russia AI, of course.

 

[Zerodv]

The horde AIs of Manchu love fighting in the mountains against Korea and lose there repeatedly due to the negative modifier hordes get for none flat terrain. (The more you know~)

Btw, the people like OP who are complaining about Korea don't care about those historical reasoning you mentioned. I know, I know, but my word of advice is: don't argue with those fools that don't care. (They just want to nerf everything around Manchu till Manchu wins everytime)

I'd rather not discuss with people that dismiss other people's opinions out of hand, but you do you.

 

[Zerodv]

Its the same issue with Ottoman sprawl into the steppe, personally. Some modifiers and AI tweaks to make steppe land vastly more productive for horde governments and unproductive + AI aversion for the non-Horde governments might discourage AI expansions like this across the world. Special rules for Russia AI, of course.

Is the reason Korea and Ming China didn't expand into the Steppe and Manchuria because they didn't want to or because they couldn't even if they wanted?

 

[hashinshin]

I think the 1444 start date works sorta well for Europe, but for RotW it sorta makes the strong countries of this time period non-existent. People want to play against Qing, or Mughals, or Marathi, etc.

 

[sigeena]

Actually I was wondering if it is better for Steppe Hordes to have a special feature in their government type. Allow them to loot without declaration of war. Something like raiding in CK2. In response, the raided nation gets a CB

It allows for them to maintain their horde unity as well.

 

[AirikrStrife]

My thread on horde mechanics: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...chanics-ideasgroup-buildings-bukhara.1048624/

Includes horde raiding (also suggested by oim8) a great khan system for mongolia (co-developed with jkiller96) and a mechanic for keeping a horde nomadizing or working it towards a settled state. And some more (read the whole thing as parts of OP is outdated)

Manchus I haven't dealt with much in the horde threads more than the set-up a bit. Yeren should be split, with a new Beishan tag representing Daurs, Solons and nomadic evenks, with Yeren representing semi-settled and settled people in the lower Amur. Both countries should be Siberian clan councils.
Though I get what ppl mean with manchus not really being hordes I don't have any comments yet

Talking terrain, this is an issue with also forest khanates like siberia and kazan, later which ahistirically has steppe land.
Maybe just remove the terrain penalty?

 

[Zerodv]

My thread on horde mechanics: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...chanics-ideasgroup-buildings-bukhara.1048624/

Includes horde raiding (also suggested by oim8) a great khan system for mongolia (co-developed with jkiller96) and a mechanic for keeping a horde nomadizing or working it towards a settled state. And some more (read the whole thing as parts of OP is outdated)

Manchus I haven't dealt with much in the horde threads more than the set-up a bit. Yeren should be split, with a new Beishan tag representing Daurs, Solons and nomadic evenks, with Yeren representing semi-settled and settled people in the lower Amur. Both countries should be Siberian clan councils.
Though I get what ppl mean with manchus not really being hordes I don't have any comments yet

Talking terrain, this is an issue with also forest khanates like siberia and kazan, later which ahistirically has steppe land.
Maybe just remove the terrain penalty?

Wouldn't dividing them more make them weaker?

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

The whole idea that the Manchus are a "horde" in the style of Mongols is wrong. They were a settled society that practiced agrarian style agriculture and pastoralism.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Wouldn't dividing them more make them weaker?

Only Yeren would get divided, and Yeren wasn't a "manchu state". My idea that Yeren as a tag would represent peoples like the Negidal, Oroch, Ulch, Nivkh, Nanai and Udege. While Beishan represents Solon, Daur and nomadic Evenki. Ideally those states get their own culture and have siberian government. Jianzhou and Haixi is if anything buffed from easier preys early on. On the other hand in most of my games, the strong man in the tartary region more often than not is Buryatia (maybe because of that goldmine) and is even a more pressing "issue" than Korea I would argue.

It is right that the manchus weren't hordes like the mongols, but everything in game is an abstraction. True though that tribal federation still might be more appropriate for them.