How do we solve a problem like Korea?

[riadach]

Sorry for the early Sound of Music reference, but it seems to me that Korea always overruns the Manchu tribes to its North. Part of the problem seems to be that the likes of Yeren don't like to bend the knee and as soon as Ming wipe out their stubborn armies, Korea swoops in and takes advantage. I never see Manchu last longer than the 16th century.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Special terrain type that is only colonizable instead of conquerable for non-horde governments. These types of terrain provinces only allow you to colonize it first before coring it, during which time the province basically acts like uncored territory with associated revolt risk.

Give Jianzhou and Haixi a special government that allows them their units to fight without penalty in non-flat terrain. They were also sedentary populations and not hordes so this makes historical sense.

Increase development for Jianzhou.

Let Manchu forming requirements only be for Haixi and Jianzhou. The Wild Jurchens were not particularly important to the Later Jin/Qing dynasty.

Split Jianzhou into Left and Right Wings in 1444 start as is historically accurate. Give them allied status at the beginning of 1444.

Manchus start in 1444 as Ming tribs so there's less change of Ming annexing Manchus.

 

[Parapluman]

Make the AI for Confucian nations less likely to conquer land outright, even if they are not the celestial empire.

Or perhaps just make the AI for Confucian nations less likely to conquer land outside of their culture group.

There are only two Confucian nations at start and Ming already is hesitant to conquer land, so this wouldn't change too much and seems doable to implement.

 

[I'm gaming]

Increase development for Jianzhou.

It already has ridiculously high development compared too its neighbors, and considering its population and technology. Its population was less than 1/10 of Korea but its development is more than 1/2 of Korean in the game. Also, it couldn't even smelt iron until Nurhachi and should've imported ironworks from China and Korea.

All hordes should be heavily buffed by rehauling system, but their development should be nerfed.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Japan should be buffed so that it annexes Korea with more regularity.

 

[I'm gaming]

Japan should be buffed so that it annexes Korea with more regularity.

Korean population was 60~80% of Japanese pop in timeframe of the game. 80% at 1444, 60% at 1821. As there were no significant difference between two countries in technology until 19th, Korean development should be 70% of Japanese. However, Japan has 2.8x more development than Korea in the game as it has tens of playable daimyos. Difference in development between two countries is already too much, so no need of buffing Japan before buffing Korea. Also, there is no need of making Japan conquer Korea regularly.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Give Jianzhou historical lucky status.

 

[Dakka]

I just came in to make a Sound of Music reference, but now I see it was intentional... well played

 

[ywxiao]

How do you model a situation where a 5-6 million people nation regularly gets slapped around by a 200k people nation?
Manchu was a highly militaristic government with basically every single adult male a capable soldier, which was also true when the Manchu Jin first rose to dominate northern Asia 500 years ago.

Of the 200k manchu population, they raised some 40-60k men. If Prussia was an "army with a state", Manchu was an "army that IS the state".

What they could start with is having the Manchus not suffer a penalty in mountains and woods, they were really at home in those situations.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

 

[durbal]

Get rid of stupid bandaid nerfs and buffs on terrain for hordes that was implemented after the buggy Cossacks patch. It makes no sense, the AI doesn't know about it, and it's wonky as hell.

 

[sigeena]

There's a Tribal Federation government type as an alternative, this doesn't suffer -25% shock in non flatlands. It's currently in use by AQ, QQ and many Arabian states.

Tribal Federation
- +25% Cav- Inf Ratio
- -5 Separatism
- Has Tribal mechanics which allow +15% Cav CA

 

[ahyangyi]

Special terrain type that is only colonizable instead of conquerable for non-horde governments. These types of terrain provinces only allow you to colonize it first before coring it, during which time the province basically acts like uncored territory with associated revolt risk.

The problem is that the terrain in Northeastern China was actually decent. It was cold and relatively undeveloped, but its land was fertile and rich and agriculture was really viable there. It is one of the rice production centers in modern China.

And the Manchus weren't nomadic either. It's not some inhospitable wild land you might think.

 

[SignedName]

There's a Tribal Federation government type as an alternative, this doesn't suffer -25% shock in non flatlands. It's currently in use by AQ, QQ and many Arabian states.

Tribal Federation
- +25% Cav- Inf Ratio
- -5 Separatism
- Has Tribal mechanics which allow +15% Cav CA

Indeed. The Jurchens weren't nomads, they were a sedentary culture which was already partially Sinicized even before they formed the Qing dynasty.

 

[Mingmung]

A government change, as they were no nomads anymore.

 

[Koramei]

I agree the Jurchens need a unique government, like everyone else is saying; the horde penalty just cripples them. Before that was changed back in Cossacks, they used to actually conquer Korea pretty regularly.

With the tributary system and all the other changes in the past couple of years I wouldn't be surprised if some other stuff will still lead to their conquest more than it should, but until the horde penalty isn't a factor for them I don't think any other change would make any difference.

How do you model a situation where a 5-6 million people nation regularly gets slapped around by a 200k people nation?

Korea had 10+ million people for most of EU4's time period. I suppose that just reinforces your point more though.

I do think it's worth stating that the Koreans conquering Manchuria isn't really as horrific a turn against history as people often make it out to be here though; especially in 1444 the Joseon kingdom was not nearly as militarily inept as it'd later be, and Korea'd had plenty of successful conflicts against various northern neighbors over the centuries, including some against Jurchens just before the game's start, where Korea conquered its northern provinces. A bit different from conquering all the way to the Amur River, but by EU4 logic, it kind of makes sense. Still very bad that it happens literally every game though.

Also, it couldn't even smelt iron until Nurhachi and should've imported ironworks from China and Korea.

Have you got a source for this one? Knowledge of ironworking came to the Korean peninsula from Manchuria back in the 1st millennium BC. It's a bit different from the high quality steels that were getting made by EU4's time, but I'm skeptical that the Jurchens were incapable of making iron, even if they mostly chose to import.

Also I've yet to see a reliable figure for the population of Manchuria in this period; it was (almost) definitely markedly lower than Korea's, but especially since development is pretty loose in how it's determined anyway, and the Manchus were historically so significant, the development discrepancy makes a bit of sense.

 

[I'm gaming]

Have you got a source for this one?

You can find sources with searching 'Nurhaci 1599 iron'. Here is one of them-

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=nurhaci+1599+iron&source=bl&ots=PfoDrd7OnR&sig=3yj_4CU5G3iB-rRSRUAjqywt7FE&hl=ko&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSmKfg0ofYAhVKW7wKHVBkCf8Q6AEIUzAN#v=onepage&q=nurhaci 1599 iron&f=false


Really, Jurchens before Nurhaci weren't a thing at East Asia. They farmed, ranched, and looted. When Ming and Korea couldn't endure looting, they attacked Jurchens and burnt everything to make them not loot for a while. AI Korean conquering Manchu is not what we want to see, but Korea was much stronger than Jurchens before Nurhaci.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

I think the Manchus are just the cusp of the problem. The entire Ming tributary system makes no sense tbh.

The tributary relationship should be a trade system where if you're not a Ming tributary you are locked out of the Ming trade nodes sort of like an auto-embargo.

 

[genyuab]

Maybe a unique government type for Manchu(even a tribal government is better suited in Manchuria terrains) could better reflect the situation as Manchu is usually considered as a fishing and hunting people instead of a nomadic people.

 

[ywxiao]

I do think it's worth stating that the Koreans conquering Manchuria isn't really as horrific a turn against history as people often make it out to be here though; especially in 1444 the Joseon kingdom was not nearly as militarily inept as it'd later be, and Korea'd had plenty of successful conflicts against various northern neighbors over the centuries, including some against Jurchens just before the game's start, where Korea conquered its northern provinces. A bit different from conquering all the way to the Amur River, but by EU4 logic, it kind of makes sense. Still very bad that it happens literally every game though.



Have you got a source for this one? Knowledge of ironworking came to the Korean peninsula from Manchuria back in the 1st millennium BC. It's a bit different from the high quality steels that were getting made by EU4's time, but I'm skeptical that the Jurchens were incapable of making iron, even if they mostly chose to import.

Yes, it's not impossible. Korea was able to conquer border parts of Manchuria, build forts, and culturally converting the locals, but the deeper they go the harder it will become. Korea could have pushed further, but at high cost and nearly no return benefits. The people of Manchuria were not very tax productive, and there weren't a lot of them. Settling in Manchuria would not be a favourable proposition for the vast majority of Koreans.

Jin(Manchus) got Mongol'ed is your answer. When Jin first formed they defeated the Liao empire and moved everything to Dadu. But the cycle of horde rise and fall went around and it was their turn, they lost China and lost pretty much everything.