How do those dirty Germans and Italians get away with it?

[Hugo Sperrle]

I play as Dominion of Canada. I spend oodles of political points to boost German Reich and Italy to democratic party popularity, and even more plus producing and requesting lend leased infantry equipment to stage a coup.

After 14 months or so I’m successful starting a civil war in both countries, at the expense of building up my own army.

Surprisingly with much help of the Allies faction able to get German Reich to surrender and end the war started by them by 1943 instead of two years later. Not bad for little Canada.

Come peace conference, this is what happens: German Reich turns into German Republic, Italy to Republican Italy. Yet, both countries keep all their possessions they acquired while they were fascist. German Republic keeps former Vichy France, Corsica, and all former colonies in Africa and Syria, et al., plus (after a few days) Western Poland? France is totally screwed in the deal, ending up as only a former shade of what it was before. Republican Italy keeps Libya, Ethiopia and Albania, and in my game, parts of southern France (like Savoy) it occupied in 1940? Would the allies really allow that in a peace conference? I would think both former fascist countries would be highly curtailed to such a degree that they end up with zero colonies, freed to their core claimants, and far less land mass on home soil. Someone please explain this to me and tell me what political history book I’m not reading (if not fantasy book). Thanks so much, and keep your facemasks on!

 

[kettyo]

The capitalists need a strong German puppet against the red horde

 

[Hugo Sperrle]

The capitalists need a strong German puppet against the red horde

I might actually believe you if the game did puppet the two countries to United Kingdom or (shudder) United States. But that didn't quite happen in reality in '45, either.

 

[kettyo]

But that didn't quite happen in reality in '45, either.

Germany became occupation zones first and then NATO / Warshaw Pact puppets as West / East Germany.

 

[sekelsenmat]

I might actually believe you if the game did puppet the two countries to United Kingdom or (shudder) United States. But that didn't quite happen in reality in '45, either.

Amazing how little people know of history. As late as 49 the allies still were dismantling factories in Germany and each country reined supreme in their occupation zone. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_(1945–1990)

>>>>The dismantling did however continue, and in 1949 West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer wrote to the Allies requesting that it end<<<<

 

[Hugo Sperrle]

Germany became occupation zones first and then NATO / Warshaw Pact puppets as West / East Germany.

True, true. But Germany didn't control most of southern France, or large segments of Africa, Syria and Poland.

 

[Hugo Sperrle]

Amazing how little people know of history. As late as 49 the allies still were dismantling factories in Germany and each country reined supreme in their occupation zone. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_(1945–1990)

>>>>The dismantling did however continue, and in 1949 West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer wrote to the Allies requesting that it end<<<<

So if I read you right, you agree that there is something wrong with that picture and that it should never ever happen?

 

[Zauberelefant]

I guess the game thinks that you support the victorious faction. And they inherit the fascists' gains.
Should not be, but it's not technically wrong.

 

[Zauberelefant]

So if I read you right, you agree that there is something wrong with that picture and that it should never ever happen?

I think he adressed a point you got wrong about Germany not being a puppet in 1945.

 

[Hugo Sperrle]

I think he adressed a point you got wrong about Germany not being a puppet in 1945.

West Germany was a de facto puppet of the United States. Again, the game does not represent that fact. German Republic is completely free, and it possesses a lot of states that I can't see the allies would ever allow in any kind of plausible alternate history, at least under the conditions of my original post.

 

[Restless Native]

I’m civil war scenarios it treats both sides as two opposing countries in two opposing factions.
Vichy France is a separate nation.

When the allies won, democratic Germany and Italy were on the winning side and I assume had a high contribution as would have done most of the fighting. This gave them first picks of territory. Although I’m not sure why poland wasn’t freed. I assume they joined the allies.

I agree it would never have happened like that in reality. The issue is with the peace conference mechanic. The whole thing is way off how it really works.
In my opinion that whole system needs to be ripped out of the game and replaced. Although once the war over then the game is over for most people.

 

[Hugo Sperrle]

I’m civil war scenarios it treats both sides as two opposing countries in two opposing factions.
Vichy France is a separate nation.

When the allies won, democratic Germany and Italy were on the winning side and I assume had a high contribution as would have done most of the fighting. This gave them first picks of territory. Although I’m not sure why poland wasn’t freed. I assume they joined the allies.

I agree it would never have happened like that in reality. The issue is with the peace conference mechanic. The whole thing is way off how it really works.
In my opinion that whole system needs to be ripped out of the game and replaced. Although once the war over then the game is over for most people.

That's it! I've had it with Hearts of Iron! I'm tired of fantasy games. I'm going to buy Stellaris and play a true historical game.

 

[Restless Native]

That's it! I've had it with Hearts of Iron! I'm tired of fantasy games. I'm going to buy Stellaris and play a true historical game.

I especially don’t like the war contribution system. Just because lots of your men died doesn’t give you an immediate right to territory you don’t hold yourself.

 

[Hugo Sperrle]

I especially don’t like the war contribution system. Just cus loads of your men died doendt
Give you a bigger right to territory if you don’t hold it yourself.

Uh, you may want a doctor to look at your fingers. You use the hammer on the nails made of metal, not your fingernails. You'll type much better. And you'll likely feel better, too.

 

[Restless Native]

Uh, you may want a doctor to look at your fingers.

yeah I messed that up a bit

 

[kettyo]

I think Germany probably annexed Poland and Vichy so civil-war winning democratic Germany inherited them as colonies.

Same as if it happened in Britain and they inherit the Empire or the same with France.

Let's say France goes communist and democratic revolters subdue the government. It would be silly if they released all the colonies.

The game doesn't see the difference.

 

[Hugo Sperrle]

I think Germany probably annexed Poland and Vichy so civil-war winning democratic Germany inherited them as colonies.

Same as if it happened in Britain and they inherit the Empire or the same with France.

Let's say France goes communist and democratic revolters subdue the government. It would be silly if they released all the colonies.

The game doesn't see the difference.

Yes, that's clearly what happened in the game. Still, trying to wrap my head around if that is a plausible alternate historical possibility, and what history books the devs were reading between their coding breaks.

I suppose the game goes to show one how a former empire like the United Kingdom views democracy vs. one of its possessions like British Raj or any other Commonwealth nation. So same must go with France, and UK's bastard child the United States, and thus "democratic" Germany.

 

[SophieX]

That's it! I've had it with Hearts of Iron! I'm tired of fantasy games.

Canada initiated a civil-war in Germany = Doing fantasy things could provoke fantasy results

 

[Hugo Sperrle]

Canada initiated a civil-war in Germany = Doing fantasy things could provoke fantasy results

To use your language and algebra: Canada initiated a civil-war in Germany = if fantasy thing, then don't allow it to provoke fantasy results in historical reality game (or 2+2=5)

To translate the above for rational persons: If the game, particularly a historical game, allows a move, a player who buys a game like this should expect that a move option be reasonably realistic and plausible, otherwise the game should prevent it. In my case, I was not prevented in starting a civil war in Germany. A rational person will expect a history game to prevent unreal moves and unreal outcomes.


Come on readers, lets see some appropriate red and green thumbs!

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

particularly a historical game

expect a history game

Well, I guess that's the point, isn't it. The game isn't a history game but a wargaming sandbox set in a world that resembles ours at the start of WW2. Nothing, more nothing less. Some rules and the expecially the starting positions of some players (ie nations) are set in a way that a WW2-like outcome is quite propable. However, besides of these starting restrictions and some other rules which might or might not be disabled depending on the player's country ideology, all rules apply for all players. This includes the rules for staging coups and how (civil) wars are resolved.

Or in other words: If you want a game, that resembles WW2 as closely as possible you may have bought the wrong game.