OK, I think that I have the raw basics after watching some online tutorials and trying out a few games as Castille. But how do I REALLY learn to play a game as intricate as this? How do I know when to attack; when not to attack; when to build; what to build; what ideas to have, etc.? How do I make good decisions instead of random ones like I'm making now? You guys seem to know this game so inside-and-out that you have your own language? How does a newbie get to where you are?
How Do I Learn this Game?
- Thread starter gandre
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Strange to see people approach to the game like it is Rocket Science.
Just play, google vague things, have fun.
Just play, google vague things, have fun.
I, for one, find it to be a very humbling game. Just asking for guidance.
A lot of trial and error. Don't be afraid to fail and fail again. You'll get better and the fun starts to grow.
Take a medium sized to big country. Castille is fine. And try to focus on one aspect first. Diplomacy would be a first, try making friends. Don't mind France too much, go for a colonial game. Military is tough. Don't attack countries that are too powerfull or have powerfull alies. Granada is weak and can be taken. Aragon and Portugal are possibilities, but as a rookie, rather try to befriend them.
It's tough giving general advice because it's such a vast game and individual aspects might be overwhelming at first. But it's not that hard to handle once you get a grip and feel the rush of expandng. Mighty kingdoms await
Take a medium sized to big country. Castille is fine. And try to focus on one aspect first. Diplomacy would be a first, try making friends. Don't mind France too much, go for a colonial game. Military is tough. Don't attack countries that are too powerfull or have powerfull alies. Granada is weak and can be taken. Aragon and Portugal are possibilities, but as a rookie, rather try to befriend them.
It's tough giving general advice because it's such a vast game and individual aspects might be overwhelming at first. But it's not that hard to handle once you get a grip and feel the rush of expandng. Mighty kingdoms await
Oh yes. I've been playing Paradox games since 2002 and I still don't know how to play. It's just fun watching all my ships sink and armies get crushed.
Thank you for the positive feedback. Besides Castille, which "medium sized to big" countries would you recommend for a novice?
Other starter friendly states could be Denmark, France, Poland, Muscovy, or one of the bigger republics if you want to try that.
Hansa, Venice, Genoa. (Word of warning though, Genoa starts the game by losing land.)
Ed: alternatively, If you want to start outside europe, Ethiopia, Mali, Dai viet, and timurids are pretty fun, and reasonably "safe".
Ed2: How could i forget Japan. Bit of smart diplomatic game and it's one of the safest places in the game. (until the british or iberians arrive.)
Hansa, Venice, Genoa. (Word of warning though, Genoa starts the game by losing land.)
Ed: alternatively, If you want to start outside europe, Ethiopia, Mali, Dai viet, and timurids are pretty fun, and reasonably "safe".
Ed2: How could i forget Japan. Bit of smart diplomatic game and it's one of the safest places in the game. (until the british or iberians arrive.)
It's experience really.
For new players it's best to play strong European powers like France, Austria and Castile or as the Ottomans.
If you have more precise questions the I am sure that the community will try to answers those
For new players it's best to play strong European powers like France, Austria and Castile or as the Ottomans.
If you have more precise questions the I am sure that the community will try to answers those
In my experience there are two ways:
1) Fail. Try again. Fail better.
2) Play as a powerhouse. Then play with a weeker nation. And again weeker nation.
1) Fail. Try again. Fail better.
2) Play as a powerhouse. Then play with a weeker nation. And again weeker nation.
The best way of learning is indeed playing the game.
If you want to play a safe game without much wars and focussed on trade/economy, Spain or Portugal are the way to go.
If you want an 'easy' but expansionistic game, try England (Just surrender the war and give France all it's continental territory and instead just stomp Scotland and Ireland before expanding your Naval supremacy).
If you like diplomatic challenges, start as Austria or Bohemia and go for the HRE title. You really can't lead much wars without being stopped by coalitions, so diplomatic play is a real must.
For the total war experience, pick up one of the daimos on Japan. Lots of low-level war strategy right there, with all the fighting to become the Shogun.
A balanced and slow game could be Vyng... however that yellow blob in India is called. You only have one mentionworthy rival and once that one is beaten you can munch into a local superpower.
Alternatively, give one of the North American tribes a try (if you have the CoP expansion), they have a very slow gamepace and are really beginner-friendly.
I DISADVISE taking large blob nations like France, Timurids or Ming though, they don't really teach much and aren't as fun to play if you don't know what you're doing.
If you want to play a safe game without much wars and focussed on trade/economy, Spain or Portugal are the way to go.
If you want an 'easy' but expansionistic game, try England (Just surrender the war and give France all it's continental territory and instead just stomp Scotland and Ireland before expanding your Naval supremacy).
If you like diplomatic challenges, start as Austria or Bohemia and go for the HRE title. You really can't lead much wars without being stopped by coalitions, so diplomatic play is a real must.
For the total war experience, pick up one of the daimos on Japan. Lots of low-level war strategy right there, with all the fighting to become the Shogun.
A balanced and slow game could be Vyng... however that yellow blob in India is called. You only have one mentionworthy rival and once that one is beaten you can munch into a local superpower.
Alternatively, give one of the North American tribes a try (if you have the CoP expansion), they have a very slow gamepace and are really beginner-friendly.
I DISADVISE taking large blob nations like France, Timurids or Ming though, they don't really teach much and aren't as fun to play if you don't know what you're doing.
Another safe nation in Europe is Portugal, just break the alliance with England and create one with Castile. Then continue colonising and trading and no harm will come to you in Europe.
Otherwise, in Asia (my favorite place), go for Korea, Japan or Ayutthaya. Ayutthaya is the biggest kid in the playground (unless you mess with Ming) and will have no trouble expanding. Japan will teach you about diplomatically annexing, the first ten years will be boring because that's the time you need to wait before you can start annexing your vassals and war isn't an option for them at that moment. After you annexed your vassals and reformed Japan you can expand into Korea, Manchu(ria) or colonise the pacific. Korea is the most difficult of the three as you can only attack Manchu, but no worries, they will attack the Mongol Khanate very quickly and usually the don't do very well. So go to war with them while they are also fighting the Mongol Khanate and their overlord the Oirat Horde and you should have no problems.
Otherwise, in Asia (my favorite place
), go for Korea, Japan or Ayutthaya. Ayutthaya is the biggest kid in the playground (unless you mess with Ming) and will have no trouble expanding. Japan will teach you about diplomatically annexing, the first ten years will be boring because that's the time you need to wait before you can start annexing your vassals and war isn't an option for them at that moment. After you annexed your vassals and reformed Japan you can expand into Korea, Manchu(ria) or colonise the pacific. Korea is the most difficult of the three as you can only attack Manchu, but no worries, they will attack the Mongol Khanate very quickly and usually the don't do very well. So go to war with them while they are also fighting the Mongol Khanate and their overlord the Oirat Horde and you should have no problems.
EU4 is a huge learning curve to anyone who has not played a grand strategy before and is sort of like rocket science compared to learning other games.
A good starting point are youtube-„let’s play“-videos – details may change due to patches, but they give a general idea. AAR’s on this forum are also good, but might omit details, a new player might need.
The next point seems strange: Lose a lot! What I mean is, do not start with easy countries (medium to large), but with small ones and be reckless. Thus you learn fast. And only learning by pain is efficient.
Example: Once you have experienced, what happens declaring war without CB in the HRE, you won’t do it again. Once you have experienced an unexpected cascading alliance, you learn to check the alliance-web before declaring wars. Declare war on Cyprus as Venice and as Rhodes/The Knights – one will work out one won’t! Why?
So you start up various nations and play them 5 to 15 years. When you make mistakes, then you do not lose your favorite play-through and do not get frustrated, because your carefully crafted empire goes down the drain after 100+ years of playtime.
Finally, there is the constant mixture between playing yourself, reading the wiki, reading AAR’s, reading this forum and asking detailed questions (there is for example a “quick questions – quick answers” –thread around.). Only by doing most of these, you will become better: Only theory without experience or only experience without explanation why, will frustrate you.
For real and not purely learning-games, at first set your goals low and do not be frustrated; even though I consider myself experienced, at times the ai wipes the floor with my country. Good and rather easy starting countries have been mentioned above.
Good luck and have fun !!!
The next point seems strange: Lose a lot! What I mean is, do not start with easy countries (medium to large), but with small ones and be reckless. Thus you learn fast. And only learning by pain is efficient.
Example: Once you have experienced, what happens declaring war without CB in the HRE, you won’t do it again. Once you have experienced an unexpected cascading alliance, you learn to check the alliance-web before declaring wars. Declare war on Cyprus as Venice and as Rhodes/The Knights – one will work out one won’t! Why?
So you start up various nations and play them 5 to 15 years. When you make mistakes, then you do not lose your favorite play-through and do not get frustrated, because your carefully crafted empire goes down the drain after 100+ years of playtime.
Finally, there is the constant mixture between playing yourself, reading the wiki, reading AAR’s, reading this forum and asking detailed questions (there is for example a “quick questions – quick answers” –thread around.). Only by doing most of these, you will become better: Only theory without experience or only experience without explanation why, will frustrate you.
For real and not purely learning-games, at first set your goals low and do not be frustrated; even though I consider myself experienced, at times the ai wipes the floor with my country. Good and rather easy starting countries have been mentioned above.
Good luck and have fun
!!!
If one wants to improve rapidly, then a dedicated effort in figuring out how to improve is the correct approach. Humbled or not, should OP get his methodology down he will improve quickly...much more so than the "just play" crowd, which tends to hit a plateau they never surpass with a few exceptions.
Here are some tips:
1. Use games of the most successful players you can find as a frame of reference. Try to match their success, and when you fail figure out why it happened. Once you understand not just what they're doing, but also why they're doing it, you can start to build your own style. However, it is important to understand what is currently understood as possible. Rookie players in most games perceive perfectly doable things to be completely impossible or don't even think about the possibility of doing them, and thus do not plan for things that they themselves could attain with some focus. Never let yourself get caught in the trap of "he can do that because he's "x", but I can't". Note that this piece of advice is not unique to gaming, but applies to it the same as anything else.
2. Whenever you don't understand a mechanic, look it up here or on the wiki. Try to understand the investments required and what you can get out of it. This applies to everything from trade power to using scorched earth.
3. Set in-game goals and try to reach them. Make them lofty, and when you don't get there, again go over your choices carefully and think about what you could have done better...even for master players there are better choices they could have made.
The nation you choose doesn't matter much, assuming it can use all of the mechanics in a reasonable time period. You could learn this game pretty easily regardless of whether you pick France or Nepal. In fact, playing both gives you an idea of what you can get way with in each situation.
I went from "never played grand strategy" to "Luck of the Irish" in less than two months
. The learning curve is real though, and steep. Actually improving quickly requires some focus on doing so. The OP asked the right question, which is not "what to do in this game" but rather "how do I learn this game".To really improve quickly, you must first understand that things like:
1. Vassal Vijaynagar inside of 5-7 years of the game's start with Bahmanis, Gujarat or Orissa.
2. Defeat Ming with Korea and remove most of Shun from them, before 1500.
3. Conquer all of England, Scotland, and Ireland before 1550 with Munster (the Irish one).
4. *Win* a war against a colonial power with backwards nations like Creek or Songhai, taking territory.
5. Trash Austria with Venice and rip out Styria, despite that they got Burgundian inheritance.
are all possible...in fact some of them are relatively easy. Once you understand what can be done, you need only work out how to do it. Experience alone does not make one better nearly as fast as experience with a focused effort on improving.
IMHO youtube is a pretty good start; quill18 has some decent 'Let's Play" series and HalbyStarcraft is pretty pro.
I would recommend additionally someone like Shen or Maddjinn, or DDRJake's streams.
Or my own videos, if I can get the @#%@# setup working on my new machine, but not just yet apparently.
I'm also fairly new to Paradox games, having been somewhat daunted by their complexity. I'd been putting off learning to play them for months but eventually took the plunge and found that actually, they aren't as confusing as they first appeared. I'd recommend playing through the tutorials first, just so you know what you're looking at, then pick a nation and start a campaign. I'd advise keeping the wiki page open during your first few attempts, particularly the page with the beginner's guide, so that you can look up any of the game mechanics you don't understand.
In my first game I picked France, as large Western nations are typically the easiest to play as. You do start at war with England, but you are at an advantage and honestly, I think that learning how to fight effectively is a vital thing to learn as a beginner, as somebody will attack you sooner or later and you need to know how to defend yourself. After winning the Hundred Years War and reclaiming as many of the English-held provinces as you can manage I'd recommend starting to annex your numerous vassals (check the wiki if you're unsure how) and building diplomatic links with the enemies of your enemies. Be sure to save often - then you can just reload if you make a crippling mistake (which in all likelyhood, you will - I certainly did). If all goes well it should be possible to end the game with a France that exceeds even its current real life borders and is a strong economic, military and diplomatic powerhouse that would be able to weather the centuries to come!
For the second game I chose Portugal, in order to become more familiar with the trade and colonisation aspects of the game. In contrast to France, you'll be focusing on developing your navy, exploring the New World (don't forget that Portugal starts the game with some explorers!), and improving your income through trade rather than production. It's also a good opportunity to play a fairly peaceful game, as you're encouraged to make friends with Castille, who will generally provide you with valuable protection in the early game while you are still weak.
After those two, I started picking nations where I would have an oppotunity to become familiar with any of the mechanics I was still unsure about - e.g. the Ottomans to learn how to survive Westernisation, Sweden to attempt to convert religion, etc. After a few games you should find you have a solid understanding of the basics, and you can then start picking more challenging nations. Once you get really good and want to start playing games as 'doomed' OPMs (one-province minor nations) then you're probably best off asking advice from the experts on these forums - as they'll be able to teach you all the little tricks that can turn your fortunes around (personally - I'm nowhere near that point yet!).
Although it's a bit of a cliche, the most important thing (imo) is to make sure you're having fun. Forcing yourself to play the game in a way that you don't enjoy will just put you off from playing it at all, and you'll be less likely to learn new techniques if you're feeling frustrated.
Anyway, I hope all that's of at least some help to you - I thought that it might be useful to hear some advice from a fellow beginner. I wish you the best of luck with all your nation-building endeavours and many happy hours of gaming to come!
In my first game I picked France, as large Western nations are typically the easiest to play as. You do start at war with England, but you are at an advantage and honestly, I think that learning how to fight effectively is a vital thing to learn as a beginner, as somebody will attack you sooner or later and you need to know how to defend yourself. After winning the Hundred Years War and reclaiming as many of the English-held provinces as you can manage I'd recommend starting to annex your numerous vassals (check the wiki if you're unsure how) and building diplomatic links with the enemies of your enemies. Be sure to save often - then you can just reload if you make a crippling mistake (which in all likelyhood, you will - I certainly did). If all goes well it should be possible to end the game with a France that exceeds even its current real life borders and is a strong economic, military and diplomatic powerhouse that would be able to weather the centuries to come!
For the second game I chose Portugal, in order to become more familiar with the trade and colonisation aspects of the game. In contrast to France, you'll be focusing on developing your navy, exploring the New World (don't forget that Portugal starts the game with some explorers!), and improving your income through trade rather than production. It's also a good opportunity to play a fairly peaceful game, as you're encouraged to make friends with Castille, who will generally provide you with valuable protection in the early game while you are still weak.
After those two, I started picking nations where I would have an oppotunity to become familiar with any of the mechanics I was still unsure about - e.g. the Ottomans to learn how to survive Westernisation, Sweden to attempt to convert religion, etc. After a few games you should find you have a solid understanding of the basics, and you can then start picking more challenging nations. Once you get really good and want to start playing games as 'doomed' OPMs (one-province minor nations) then you're probably best off asking advice from the experts on these forums - as they'll be able to teach you all the little tricks that can turn your fortunes around (personally - I'm nowhere near that point yet!).
Although it's a bit of a cliche, the most important thing (imo) is to make sure you're having fun. Forcing yourself to play the game in a way that you don't enjoy will just put you off from playing it at all, and you'll be less likely to learn new techniques if you're feeling frustrated.
Anyway, I hope all that's of at least some help to you - I thought that it might be useful to hear some advice from a fellow beginner. I wish you the best of luck with all your nation-building endeavours and many happy hours of gaming to come!
I remember first playing this game being daunted by its complexity. But learning it is far worth it in my opinion. I was not bored for at least 3 months straight; I was either playing EU4 or doing something that needed to be done. I remember multiple times trying to watch TV but me thinking to myself a couple minutes later "why am I not playing EU4?"
This might sound boring but, the easiest way to learn the game is simple to pick one nation and start a non-ironman game. This way you can save the before important decisions are made and you are able to play through multiple scenarios while keeping the vast majority of the game the same. This allows you to focus your learning on just a few aspects of the game as opposed to playing as several nations with any number of different scenarios.
An example would be to save right before signing peace. In one scenarios take as much as you can, then play for 25 years and see what happens. Now go back to the save prior to the peace deal and try something different and play another 25 years (or until you notice what changed). Better yet save the game prior to your first idea and then play through the entire idea set (I highly recommend the console in this regard as many of the sub-ideas are self explanatory and a waste of time getting there, but you may want to see the effects of a completely filled Religious Ideas will have as opposed to say Administrative)
The point being, this way you can see how your decisions affect the game as opposed to other aspects. I also recommend a game in the HRE to start with, you will learn how to expand while dealing with a lot of neighbors (AE will play a greater role), as opposed to lets Muscovy with fewer neighbors. You basically setting up a self taught tutorial this way. It might sound boring, but you will definitely teach yourself the game with this approach.
An example would be to save right before signing peace. In one scenarios take as much as you can, then play for 25 years and see what happens. Now go back to the save prior to the peace deal and try something different and play another 25 years (or until you notice what changed). Better yet save the game prior to your first idea and then play through the entire idea set (I highly recommend the console in this regard as many of the sub-ideas are self explanatory and a waste of time getting there, but you may want to see the effects of a completely filled Religious Ideas will have as opposed to say Administrative)
The point being, this way you can see how your decisions affect the game as opposed to other aspects. I also recommend a game in the HRE to start with, you will learn how to expand while dealing with a lot of neighbors (AE will play a greater role), as opposed to lets Muscovy with fewer neighbors. You basically setting up a self taught tutorial this way. It might sound boring, but you will definitely teach yourself the game with this approach.