How do I attack the Galactic Emperor? (Single player game, have tried espionage and undermining Imperial Authority already)

[Captrench]

I missed an opportunity to declare myself Custodian, which I've always won in previous games. It's easy to be popular with the combo Fanatic Egalitarian and Xenophile I guess. Another civ was the second most popular choice, so we both had resolutions pending to declare ourselves Custodian. As I was the most popular choice I thought my resolution would hit the Senate first and I focussed on other things. More fool me. This other civ used their Emergency Measure to get their resolution to the Senate and a vote instead of mine. As a lot of the civs voting and supporting my candidacy as Custodian also supported the other civ, me voting against them didn't make a difference, and they became Custodian. Damn.

Actually, that part was pretty cool. I liked the fact that I'd just been taught a lesson in complacency by the AI, and the AI had used realistic tactics to clear a rival. Nothing to complain about there and I did chuckle. But still, damnedidy damn damn.

Ok, so obviously I didn't like losing that. But then my rival passes all the required measures to become Emperor also, despite me vetoing certain resolutions along the way. As they were a popular choice in the first place all the other civs went right along with their proposals. Ok, at least I feel better about planning to overthrow them at some point, seeing as they are predictably throwing away their Moral Democracy roots and going full on despotic.

And now I find out for the first time that declaring war on an Emperor is impossible if you are part of the Empire already. So i then find out about the Espionage missions to undermine Imperial Authority, and if successful enough, then to Spark a Rebellion. Initially, I seemed to be making progress dedicating all 7 of my envoys to undermining Imperial Authority. As other civs started to counter that with their own by strengthening Imperial Authority, I found that even doing the espionage missions and increasing my rosta of envoys (currently 10) didn't really make a dent in Imperial Authority anymore which has managed to climb to max level now at 200.

So, to my question... In a single player game, with all other civs relatively content to support the current Emperor, and strengthen Imperial Authority, is it possible to topple the Emperor somehow? I can't declare war against him nor can I undermine authority enough, so it looks like this is a stalemate position.

Full disclosure, I have already "won" the game by score and fought off the Unbidden crisis, so there isn't anything else to lose here. As I've never been in a game where another civ became Custodian and in turn Emperor I wanted to explore the gameplay this time around.

Current game file attached. I'm currently in a never ending war already with an opponent whose fighting another war also, resulting in the usual mess where neither of our war goals can be accomplished as occupation is split between all my enemies opponents. But that's a separate and lesser issue to me at the moment.

 

[Troyen]

I don't think you can attack the emperor directly and if there aren't any countries outside of the empire, there won't be enough external pressure to weaken the emperor's grip (like might happen if a War in Heaven or Crisis is going on and the emperor's territory is ravaged, making them lose diplo weight, since I think - but could be wrong - AI empires are less likely to support a weak emperor).

However, if the other AI nations are propping up the emperor, you can try picking off your biggest rivals to weaken the emperor's allies so long as the Pax Galactica law has not been passed. The higher % of your diplo weight, the more you can influence the laws being passed. Though I don't think you can revoke the empire by vote, this would let you repeal the imperal defense legions or defense fleet, if applicable. Taking out other nations also reduces the number of envoys you're competing against propping up authority, which eventually should let you win out since I don't think the AI commits 100% of envoys to imperial authority.

I'm not sure if there's another way you by yourself can topple the entire empire from within.

 

[Zagreb 887]

I missed an opportunity to declare myself Custodian, which I've always won in previous games. It's easy to be popular with the combo Fanatic Egalitarian and Xenophile I guess. Another civ was the second most popular choice, so we both had resolutions pending to declare ourselves Custodian. As I was the most popular choice I thought my resolution would hit the Senate first and I focussed on other things. More fool me. This other civ used their Emergency Measure to get their resolution to the Senate and a vote instead of mine. As a lot of the civs voting and supporting my candidacy as Custodian also supported the other civ, me voting against them didn't make a difference, and they became Custodian. Damn.

Actually, that part was pretty cool. I liked the fact that I'd just been taught a lesson in complacency by the AI, and the AI had used realistic tactics to clear a rival. Nothing to complain about there and I did chuckle. But still, damnedidy damn damn.

Ok, so obviously I didn't like losing that. But then my rival passes all the required measures to become Emperor also, despite me vetoing certain resolutions along the way. As they were a popular choice in the first place all the other civs went right along with their proposals. Ok, at least I feel better about planning to overthrow them at some point, seeing as they are predictably throwing away their Moral Democracy roots and going full on despotic.

And now I find out for the first time that declaring war on an Emperor is impossible if you are part of the Empire already. So i then find out about the Espionage missions to undermine Imperial Authority, and if successful enough, then to Spark a Rebellion. Initially, I seemed to be making progress dedicating all 7 of my envoys to undermining Imperial Authority. As other civs started to counter that with their own by strengthening Imperial Authority, I found that even doing the espionage missions and increasing my rosta of envoys (currently 10) didn't really make a dent in Imperial Authority anymore which has managed to climb to max level now at 200.

So, to my question... In a single player game, with all other civs relatively content to support the current Emperor, and strengthen Imperial Authority, is it possible to topple the Emperor somehow? I can't declare war against him nor can I undermine authority enough, so it looks like this is a stalemate position.

Full disclosure, I have already "won" the game by score and fought off the Unbidden crisis, so there isn't anything else to lose here. As I've never been in a game where another civ became Custodian and in turn Emperor I wanted to explore the gameplay this time around.

Current game file attached. I'm currently in a never ending war already with an opponent whose fighting another war also, resulting in the usual mess where neither of our war goals can be accomplished as occupation is split between all my enemies opponents. But that's a separate and lesser issue to me at the moment.

Your story is very interesting, I really wonder why you didn't just veto their proposal for Custodian, remove term limits and then become Emperor?

Indeed you can't attack the galactic Emperor without sparking a rebellion, and if most other AI like it, you're stuck. Spark incident and Smear campaign don't help either. If you want to RP your rebellion, you can use this:

Enter "debugtooltip" in the console, mouse over the GE and one other nation who like it and check their country ID. GE is "X" and other nation is "Y". Now, enter this command add_opinion X Y - 1000 (try with Y X too) repeat the operation with enough Nation to have enough discontent people in your side

 

[Captrench]

I don't think you can attack the emperor directly and if there aren't any countries outside of the empire, there won't be enough external pressure to weaken the emperor's grip (like might happen if a War in Heaven or Crisis is going on and the emperor's territory is ravaged, making them lose diplo weight, since I think - but could be wrong - AI empires are less likely to support a weak emperor).

However, if the other AI nations are propping up the emperor, you can try picking off your biggest rivals to weaken the emperor's allies so long as the Pax Galactica law has not been passed. The higher % of your diplo weight, the more you can influence the laws being passed. Though I don't think you can revoke the empire by vote, this would let you repeal the imperal defense legions or defense fleet, if applicable. Taking out other nations also reduces the number of envoys you're competing against propping up authority, which eventually should let you win out since I don't think the AI commits 100% of envoys to imperial authority.

I'm not sure if there's another way you by yourself can topple the entire empire from within.

I'm clearly having a slow brain couple of days... Although I am in a war already with another member of the Galactic Imperium, I hadn't thought too hard about fighting a war of attrition against all the other members as a way to reduce the number of supporting envoys. It's a long term approach sure, but it's one I'd be interested to try now I find myself in this situation. As this is the first time I've found myself on the losing side of the Custodian votes I'm interested in seeing where this could lead for now. In the future I'm much more likely to avoid this scenario, now I know better lol, so therefore I'm unlikely to explore it again.

So thank you for the pointer, I'm going to give that a go. Although by eck... I need to be careful to strike hard and fast in those future wars, because my current war is going to take ages to complete due to my enemy now fighting two separate wars and its territory occupied by multiple different armies of those two wars. So as no one can claim complete occupation of the enemy's territory, it comes down to waiting for war exhaustion on the winning side to crawl towards 100%. As I'm supporting the attack of another civ, I can't even suggest a draw/status quo. So i'll just have to make sure I stay ahead in research/fleet power and do other stuff in the meantime to prepare for future offensives.

Your story is very interesting, I really wonder why you didn't just veto their proposal for Custodian, remove term limits and then become Emperor?

Indeed you can't attack the galactic Emperor without sparking a rebellion, and if most other AI like it, you're stuck. Spark incident and Smear campaign don't help either. If you want to RP your rebellion, you can use this:

Enter "debugtooltip" in the console, mouse over the GE and one other nation who like it and check their country ID. GE is "X" and other nation is "Y". Now, enter this command add_opinion X Y - 1000 (try with Y X too) repeat the operation with enough Nation to have enough discontent people in your side

I think I'd already used my veto on something else when they first submitted their candidacy to become Custodian. I did veto their resolution to remove term limits, and their next resolution to become Galactic Emperor I wasn't able to. I think in between this particular civ also submitted a resolution to denounce either myself or one of my vassals which I'd vetoed also, can't remember now. As I mentioned, it's actually cool that that the AI "fought well" so to speak and punished me for my complacency. That's respectable gameplay.

Appreciate the console solution. I'm first going to try Troyens suggestion, as that's gameplay as currently intended. if that doesn't pan out for me, whether due to my incompetence or some other reason I'll try out yours too. I think there's some value in exploring the current game so will follow your suggestion if all other avenues fail.


Thank you both, @Troyen and @Zagreb 887, for your comments and suggestions, appreciate them muchly!

PS - @Zagreb 887 , unfortunately I can't use the console in ironman mode. Regardless, good to know the option.

 

[Captrench]

So, despite my temptation to just start a new game (I have officially already won this game after all), stubbornness kicked in and I actually completed the war by outlastig the war exhaustion of my enemies other opponents. Just for the record, I was caught up supporting a war of ideology between an ally and 3 other civs, and those three other civs got into another war while ours was still happening. Consequently all our enemies territory got evenly split between the two separate factions attacking my enemy (my ally, and the other faction). And that meant as none of could fully occupy our enemy's territory to force a surrender, both sides had to wait for the others war exhaustion to reach 100%.

That took over 100 years. I kid you not. There really should be some opportunity to negotiate with the "enemy of my enemy" if your current enemy gets involved in another war and is already at 100% war exhaustion.

Anyway, I outlasted the other factions war exhaustion, and as they hadn't claimed any of the same territory as me, I was in turn able to fully occupy what was left and force a surrender of my enemy afterwards. Ok, so far so good. So now I have my enemy's Interstellar Assembly (they lose two envoys, I gain them), more diplomatic weight due to conquered pops and a few other extra Megastructures.

My enemy had two allies, so that was three civs supporting Imperial Authority. One I've decimated by taking their pop and Megastructures as mentioned above and another which was fully wiped out in the same war. So that's two civs down that can no longer effectively support the Galactic Emperor.

So, next step is integrating certain Vassals, as below, who are all obliviously supporting my main enemy, the Galactic Emperor, starting with those who have Megastructures such as the Interstellar Assembly. Currently integrating Commonwealth of Man. It's going to take a while obviously.

Each Interstellar Assembly I acquire gives me more diplomatic weight plus an extra two envoys that I can assign to undermine Imperial Authority. I had 10, now I have 12.

Current save game attached if anyone is interested in trying it.

I'll update this thread as I progress, with anything significant. Not daily updates.

 

[Captrench]

Just had a bit of an epiphany on how I can much more efficiently and easily undermine Imperial Authority. So, I've never really properly engaged with the Subterfuge mechanics before. I've run a few missions and felt that they were more a drain on my time than a worthwhile use of it.

However, I've never realised before that Assets, acquired via the Subterfuge mission Acquire Asset, not only make a dramatic difference to the speed of missions they are suitable for and assigned to (as determined by the categories of the acquired Asset) but also that they are not automatically used up when assigned to a mission, as well as the fact that each owned Asset cumulatively increases your max Infiltration cap. An Asset is not a one shot pistol of dubious value.

When I was previously trying to undermine Imperial Authority, I was doing so without any assigned Asset (I didn't actually have any as I didn't see the point). The speed at which Imperial Authority was being strengthened was outpacing my attempts to undermine it, not just because so many were strengthening it, but also because the mission itself was a difficulty level high enough to slow me down. In fact, my missions were running so slowly my Infiltration was fully recovering in between each mission (you suffer a -15 point Infiltration loss after every successful mission).

I didn't realise the options available. I had assumed that an Asset was automatically used up when assigned to a mission (honestly, its as if I'm deliberately making my life difficult sometimes). And because I thought it would be automatically used up, I thought that no matter how good it might be to use one, it would hardly be a benefit to me if every Weaken Imperial Authority mission needed another mission before it, to get an Asset to assign. However much a benefit the Asset would be, it would be offset by the time required to do the Acquire Asset mission beforehand. So I stubbornly kept repeating the Weaken Imperial Authority mission, cos I felt it at least kept a certain pressure up, whilst I focussed on finishing the war mentioned in previous posts above.

So while whiling away the time in this way, a pop up appears telling me that I've randomly acquired an Asset. Acquiring an Asset as a random event within a different Espionage mission must be an rng thing which I lucked out on due to the sheer number of times i kept repeating the Weaken mission. And so, for the first time I looked at this prize I'd won.

Notice the two categories circled in red? Subterfuge and Diplomacy. Now, let's look at the effect this has on missions.

Every mission has two categories associated with it. The first one is the type of Operation it is (Manipulation, Sabotage, Subterfuge and Provocation). The second is a subtype specific to the particular mission. For example, Steal Technology and Prepare Sleep Cells are both Subterfuge missions, but one is a Government subtype and the other is a Technology subtype.

As you can see from the screenshot above, each matched category grants a Skill Bonus of +4. Matching an Asset with categories that match both of the mission categories means you get +8 Skill Bonus! This can downgrade Hell++ difficulty (which will take longer to complete) to Easy (which will be relatively quick, and much more worthwhile).

See? Here's the Subterfuge mission, Steal Technology, before any Assets have been assigned.

Hang your mouse over the word "Difficulty" and I see this

If i use an Asset that is Subterfuge and Government, so only matching on one category, we get +4 to Skill Bonus. As below

Match an Asset with both of the required categories for this mission (Steal Technology is Subterfuge and Technology) and we see this.

Notice the nice green colour of the Difficulty value and Skill Bonus of 8? Without that high Skill Bonus you would need to win enough rng tests to accumulate 8 Insights, which because you would be starting from zero, would always take a while to accumulate and make a difference. Time potentially wasted, as i was finding.

So, my current strategy to test out is use one of my new Assets to speed up the Acquire Asset mission to get an Asset with both Manipulation and Diplomacy, and use that new Asset to spam Smear Campaign missions that will hopefully undermine support for the Emperor and make those targeted over time withdraw their envoys from strengthening Imperial Authority.

I will also see if, combined with my newly acquired envoys (due to captured Interstellar Assembly) from my last war, if using an Asset sufficiently speeds up my Weaken Imperial Authority missions to the point where I can outpace the gain from the supporting envoys.

Onwards!

 

[Leylos]

One of the reasons the other civs are content supporting the Emperor is because they like him. While your spies are undermining Imperial Authority you should also run Smear Campaigns in Empires the Emperor has Diplomatic Pacts with. Run them often enough and the Emperor will break his pacts with them, plummeting relations between all sides. If their relations drop sufficiently, those Empires will send Envoys to undermine Imperial Authority too.

Depending on how the Emperor has assigned his Envoys (which you obviously don't know), sparking diplomatic incidents might also be a solution. It will further help deteriorate relations and/or weaken his attempts at increasing his Imperial Authority.

 

[Maolove]

Just had a bit of an epiphany on how I can much more efficiently and easily undermine Imperial Authority. So, I've never really properly engaged with the Subterfuge mechanics before. I've run a few missions and felt that they were more a drain on my time than a worthwhile use of it.

However, I've never realised before that Assets, acquired via the Subterfuge mission Acquire Asset, not only make a dramatic difference to the speed of missions they are suitable for and assigned to (as determined by the categories of the acquired Asset) but also that they are not automatically used up when assigned to a mission, as well as the fact that each owned Asset cumulatively increases your max Infiltration cap. An Asset is not a one shot pistol of dubious value.

When I was previously trying to undermine Imperial Authority, I was doing so without any assigned Asset (I didn't actually have any as I didn't see the point). The speed at which Imperial Authority was being strengthened was outpacing my attempts to undermine it, not just because so many were strengthening it, but also because the mission itself was a difficulty level high enough to slow me down. In fact, my missions were running so slowly my Infiltration was fully recovering in between each mission (you suffer a -15 point Infiltration loss after every successful mission).

I didn't realise the options available. I had assumed that an Asset was automatically used up when assigned to a mission (honestly, its as if I'm deliberately making my life difficult sometimes). And because I thought it would be automatically used up, I thought that no matter how good it might be to use one, it would hardly be a benefit to me if every Weaken Imperial Authority mission needed another mission before it, to get an Asset to assign. However much a benefit the Asset would be, it would be offset by the time required to do the Acquire Asset mission beforehand. So I stubbornly kept repeating the Weaken Imperial Authority mission, cos I felt it at least kept a certain pressure up, whilst I focussed on finishing the war mentioned in previous posts above.

So while whiling away the time in this way, a pop up appears telling me that I've randomly acquired an Asset. Acquiring an Asset as a random event within a different Espionage mission must be an rng thing which I lucked out on due to the sheer number of times i kept repeating the Weaken mission. And so, for the first time I looked at this prize I'd won.
View attachment 803988

Notice the two categories circled in red? Subterfuge and Diplomacy. Now, let's look at the effect this has on missions.

Every mission has two categories associated with it. The first one is the type of Operation it is (Manipulation, Sabotage, Subterfuge and Provocation). The second is a subtype specific to the particular mission. For example, Steal Technology and Prepare Sleep Cells are both Subterfuge missions, but one is a Government subtype and the other is a Technology subtype.

As you can see from the screenshot above, each matched category grants a Skill Bonus of +4. Matching an Asset with categories that match both of the mission categories means you get +8 Skill Bonus! This can downgrade Hell++ difficulty (which will take longer to complete) to Easy (which will be relatively quick, and much more worthwhile).

See? Here's the Subterfuge mission, Steal Technology, before any Assets have been assigned.
View attachment 804005

Hang your mouse over the word "Difficulty" and I see this
View attachment 804009

If i use an Asset that is Subterfuge and Government, so only matching on one category, we get +4 to Skill Bonus. As below
View attachment 804014

Match an Asset with both of the required categories for this mission (Steal Technology is Subterfuge and Technology) and we see this.
View attachment 804018

Notice the nice green colour of the Difficulty value and Skill Bonus of 8? Without that high Skill Bonus you would need to win enough rng tests to accumulate 8 Insights, which because you would be starting from zero, would always take a while to accumulate and make a difference. Time potentially wasted, as i was finding.

So, my current strategy to test out is use one of my new Assets to speed up the Acquire Asset mission to get an Asset with both Manipulation and Diplomacy, and use that new Asset to spam Smear Campaign missions that will hopefully undermine support for the Emperor and make those targeted over time withdraw their envoys from strengthening Imperial Authority.

I will also see if, combined with my newly acquired envoys (due to captured Interstellar Assembly) from my last war, if using an Asset sufficiently speeds up my Weaken Imperial Authority missions to the point where I can outpace the gain from the supporting envoys.

Onwards!

your post r awesome!! ty for some new guide!

 

[Maolove]

Just had a bit of an epiphany on how I can much more efficiently and easily undermine Imperial Authority. So, I've never really properly engaged with the Subterfuge mechanics before. I've run a few missions and felt that they were more a drain on my time than a worthwhile use of it.

However, I've never realised before that Assets, acquired via the Subterfuge mission Acquire Asset, not only make a dramatic difference to the speed of missions they are suitable for and assigned to (as determined by the categories of the acquired Asset) but also that they are not automatically used up when assigned to a mission, as well as the fact that each owned Asset cumulatively increases your max Infiltration cap. An Asset is not a one shot pistol of dubious value.

When I was previously trying to undermine Imperial Authority, I was doing so without any assigned Asset (I didn't actually have any as I didn't see the point). The speed at which Imperial Authority was being strengthened was outpacing my attempts to undermine it, not just because so many were strengthening it, but also because the mission itself was a difficulty level high enough to slow me down. In fact, my missions were running so slowly my Infiltration was fully recovering in between each mission (you suffer a -15 point Infiltration loss after every successful mission).

I didn't realise the options available. I had assumed that an Asset was automatically used up when assigned to a mission (honestly, its as if I'm deliberately making my life difficult sometimes). And because I thought it would be automatically used up, I thought that no matter how good it might be to use one, it would hardly be a benefit to me if every Weaken Imperial Authority mission needed another mission before it, to get an Asset to assign. However much a benefit the Asset would be, it would be offset by the time required to do the Acquire Asset mission beforehand. So I stubbornly kept repeating the Weaken Imperial Authority mission, cos I felt it at least kept a certain pressure up, whilst I focussed on finishing the war mentioned in previous posts above.

So while whiling away the time in this way, a pop up appears telling me that I've randomly acquired an Asset. Acquiring an Asset as a random event within a different Espionage mission must be an rng thing which I lucked out on due to the sheer number of times i kept repeating the Weaken mission. And so, for the first time I looked at this prize I'd won.
View attachment 803988

Notice the two categories circled in red? Subterfuge and Diplomacy. Now, let's look at the effect this has on missions.

Every mission has two categories associated with it. The first one is the type of Operation it is (Manipulation, Sabotage, Subterfuge and Provocation). The second is a subtype specific to the particular mission. For example, Steal Technology and Prepare Sleep Cells are both Subterfuge missions, but one is a Government subtype and the other is a Technology subtype.

As you can see from the screenshot above, each matched category grants a Skill Bonus of +4. Matching an Asset with categories that match both of the mission categories means you get +8 Skill Bonus! This can downgrade Hell++ difficulty (which will take longer to complete) to Easy (which will be relatively quick, and much more worthwhile).

See? Here's the Subterfuge mission, Steal Technology, before any Assets have been assigned.
View attachment 804005

Hang your mouse over the word "Difficulty" and I see this
View attachment 804009

If i use an Asset that is Subterfuge and Government, so only matching on one category, we get +4 to Skill Bonus. As below
View attachment 804014

Match an Asset with both of the required categories for this mission (Steal Technology is Subterfuge and Technology) and we see this.
View attachment 804018

Notice the nice green colour of the Difficulty value and Skill Bonus of 8? Without that high Skill Bonus you would need to win enough rng tests to accumulate 8 Insights, which because you would be starting from zero, would always take a while to accumulate and make a difference. Time potentially wasted, as i was finding.

So, my current strategy to test out is use one of my new Assets to speed up the Acquire Asset mission to get an Asset with both Manipulation and Diplomacy, and use that new Asset to spam Smear Campaign missions that will hopefully undermine support for the Emperor and make those targeted over time withdraw their envoys from strengthening Imperial Authority.

I will also see if, combined with my newly acquired envoys (due to captured Interstellar Assembly) from my last war, if using an Asset sufficiently speeds up my Weaken Imperial Authority missions to the point where I can outpace the gain from the supporting envoys.

Onwards!

Also! Prepare Sleeper Cells operation will give you +1 to operation skill for 15 years <3 or for 30 years if you will paid asset what used in operation!