How do design companies work?

[LostinSpice]

I know you can assign design companies to your tanks, planes and ships and I know the bonuses as I can read but what about:

1. If you have Panzer IIs already researched by the game and you then assign a design company, then make a variant or research a SP version, do they get the bonuses whilst the vanilla Panzer II does not?

This is important to me as ME109s, Panzer IIs and other equipment are already researched by Germany from day one. Considering it seems to only take 20 days to research one of these would it not be better in the long term to not to have these already researched? From WWW it did not take Johan very long to catch up with Germany in tank and aircraft design.

As Germany gets a good amount of PP per day it seems a missed opportunity when an assigned design company like Porsche would not affect half your tanks pre-war.

Perhaps players can mod the start up attributes and un-select them?

 

[Swinds]

I might be wrong but I thought the Design company give specific bonus on the equipment you build.

German tanks - Faster / Better Armour etc.

 

[Federkiel]

A very interesting question. A later change would create the necessity to keep track of the specific state of already produced units. Too much of a burden on processing power for machine (computer) and man i think. Abstracting it towards an immediate conversion would not seem realistic...

Please remember that Johan could easily catch up because of the 5th research slot while his opponent could not get to it as fast. I have seen no obvious fail in his NF choice. I think that the NF trees of UK and GER aren't being balanced in a good manner as of yet. UK gets the 5th way too early - a thing GER cannot counter...

 

[LordOfWar16]

I might be wrong but I thought the Design company give specific bonus on the equipment you build.

German tanks - Faster / Better Armour etc.

Every company can build the equipment. The important thing is which company you used to research it, as in who designed it. If you design an Henschel Tiger Tank and switch to Porsche they still build the same tank from the same Henschel Design.


As for equippment that already exist we dont really know, but my guess would be that they already got an predefined company bonus. Otherwise that could actually create some balancing issues, since the UK needs to research the Hurricane, while Germany already starts with the bf109 unlocked. Then again it is highly unlikely that the UK player already has an production company selected before researching the Hurricane, since having the Hurricane at all certainly is more important than it having slightly better stats, otherwise you might end up in alot of trouble when WW2 breaks out and you simply cant field enough modern fighters and are stuck with masses of glorious Gladiators and only an fraction of Hurricanes and even less Spitfires. Due to the production efficiency you want to start the production line as fast as possible of course, otherwise you fall completly behind and get swarmed by bf109.

 

[Swinds]

Every company can build the equipment. The important thing is which company you used to researched it, as in who designed it. If you design an Henschel Tiger Tank and switch to Porsche they still build the same tank from the same Henschel Design.


As for equippment that already exist we dont really know, but my guess would be that they already got an predefined company bonus. Otherwise that could actually create some balancing issues, since the UK needs to research the Hurricane, while Germany already starts with the bf109 unlocked. Then again it is highly unlikely that the UK player already has an production company selected before researching the Hurricane, since having the Hurricane at all certainly is more important than it having slightly better stats, otherwise you might end up in alot of trouble when WW2 breaks out and you simply cant field enough modern fighters and are stuck with masses of glorious Gladiators and only an fraction of Hurricanes and even less Spitfires. Due to the production efficiency you want to start the production line as fast as possible of course, otherwise you fall completly behind and get swarmed by bf109.

Maybe BF109s with better engines and guns as they can spend experience on a already acquired model?

 

[LordOfWar16]

Maybe BF109s with better engines and guns as they can spend experience on a already acquired model?

Yes, but that is limited to up to 5 levels, which is the current limitation. When the british research the Hurricance with the bonuses of the company they can also spend the experience to upgrade them in the 4 areas 5 times, which would mean that they would be better.

I dont think it would be that much of an deal, especially since the Germans would be far ahead with the production of bf-109, but would still give the UK an potential advantage if thats the case when you compare an bf109 with an Hurricane that is fully upgraded. Anyway, as i said, it is highly unlikely that an UK player would already have an aircraft company selected by the time they research the hurricane in the first place, so it will most likely be fine anyway.

 

[panzerzombie]

I may be wrong but I think the designer bonus is "as long as the company is active" and revoked as soon as you change/dismiss the designer.
Don´t think the bonus is saved together with the generic tank model when its produced, its rather global.

I guess the thinking behind this rather unrealistic mechanic is that the player probably will stick to that specific company in the long run once he paid for the PP ( so it "was always planned from the start or whatever")

 

[LordOfWar16]

I may be wrong but I think the designer bonus is "as long as the company is active" and revoked as soon as you change/dismiss the designer.
Don´t think the bonus is saved together with the generic tank model when its produced, its rather global.

I guess the thinking behind this rather unrealistic mechanic is that the player probably will stick to that specific company in the long run once he paid for the PP ( so it "was always planned from the start or whatever")

No, the stats are permanently changed. In the tech tree you see that the company's logo shows permanently on researched equipment. If you research the PzIII with Porsche active, the Panzer IV with henschel active and switch to MAN for the Panzer V, you will have an Porsche PzIII, Henschel PzIV and an MAN PzV.

The devs explained it, in that you actually assign an company that designs the equipment, but any company can build that equipment of course. Porsche did built Tiger I and Tiger II aswell, even tho their designs were rejected in favor of the Henschel ones.

Not really. to take the M4 Sherman as an example:

Designer: U.S. Army Ordnance Department
Manufacturer:
American Locomotive Co.
Baldwin Locomotive Works
Detroit Tank Arsenal
Federal Machine and Welder Co
Fisher Tank Arsenal
Ford Motor Company
Lima Locomotive Works
Pacific Car and Foundry Company
Pressed Steel Car Company
Pullman-Standard Car Company

another example, the German Panther tank was a design by MAN, but built by both MAN, Daimler Benz, MNH and Henschel.

The soviets used design bureau for most stuff, inlcuding t-34 which was built all over the place.

Stuff works a lot differently in war than in peace. we have set up companies so that you pick based on who you want designing and researching, rather than producer, which as you see above, matters a lot less.

 

[panzerzombie]

That would mean when you fill up your Panzer divisions over time you will see that it contains "24 Henschel PzII + 14 MAN PzII + 22 generic PzII (built before any company was active)" the brand name stamped on the hull when its produced.

I did not see that in the DDs or WWW happening, but then it was not really shown. Don´t believe so though

Whereas the Exp-paid variants do stand out as distinct pieces of different equipment ( PzII A or B or C... ) and are produced as such.

Edit: Ok, after rereading your post I get your point. You say the MODELS ( Light Tier II or Med Tier III) will be permanently altered which should only be possible once researched by a certain active company. So a certain tech tier can only have one brand assigned and since it only can be produced after it is researched it stays permanent.

 

[LordOfWar16]

Edit: Ok, after rereading your post I get your point. You say the MODELS ( Light Tier II or Med Tier III) will be permanently altered which should only be possible once researched by a certain active company. So a certain tech tier can only have one brand assigned and since it only can be produced after it is researched it stays permanent.

Exactly. There can only be either MAN PzII, Porsche PzII or Henschel PzII. Once researched you can no longer change your mind and the stat will be permanently be altered. Variants change the stats on top of that of course, so you could have an Porsche Tiger that is less relieable and bump up the reliability with field experience.

 

[LostinSpice]

Do we think then a SP or AA, ART version of a tank will have the same designer company as the original? Or...not...as technically each of them has to be researched which could mean they are new models in their own right and affected by the design company selected at that time. Who knows!

This would be interesting because many tanks like the Panzer II Wespe, Luchs and Marder would benefit from a design company. I do remember seeing a picture of the Panzer III Cricket which I think had a design company associated with it, whether this is from it's parent the Panzer III I don't know.

 

[LordOfWar16]

Do we think then a SP or AA, ART version of a tank will have the same designer company as the original? Or...not...as technically each of them has to be researched which could mean they are new models in their own right and affected by the design company selected at that time. Who knows!

This would be interesting because many tanks like the Panzer II Wespe, Luchs and Marder would benefit from a design company. I do remember seeing a picture of the Panzer III Cricket which I think had a design company associated with it, whether this is from it's parent the Panzer III I don't know.

well, technicly the chassis is the same, with the difference that the turret is removed and an bigger gun is mounted on top. You could of course argue, that depending on the company you use, an different gun is used. The problem with that ingame would be, that the chassis already got its stats altered and variants of that chassis carry these changes over, with additional bonuses and penalties according to the variant, of course. It would be a bit silly if they got their stats altered 2 times by one or two different companies.

I am almost 100% certain that variants of those chassis dont get additional bonuses by an company and stick with the improvements/penalties from the designer of the main chassis.

 

[GsusNSV]

In WWW we also saw, that (for Aircraft designer at least) designer may give a bonus only to specific units.

(
Aircraft Designer

CAS Designer
Air Reseach Speed: +10%
Close Air Support:
Air Attack: +10%
Reliability: +10%
)( http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Ideas#Aircraft_Designer )
So there is a possibility, that a type of designer doesn't give a bonus to 'normal' tanks but TDs or SpAA only.

 

[LostinSpice]

well, technicly the chassis is the same, with the difference that the turret is removed and an bigger gun is mounted on top. You could of course argue, that depending on the company you use, an different gun is used. The problem with that ingame would be, that the chassis already got its stats altered and variants of that chassis of course carry these changes over, with additional bonuses and penalties according to the variant, of course. It would be a bit silly if they got their stats altered 2 times by one or two different companies.

I am almost 100% certain that variants of those chassis dont get additional bonuses by an company and stick with the improvements/penalties from the designer of the main chassis.

Thanks, from what you've said I have to agree as it makes sense.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

In WWW we also saw, that (for Aircraft designer at least) designer may give a bonus only to specific units.

That's sort of a bummer actually. I was hoping the companies would give broadly equivalent bonuses and mauls to all technology under their responsibility without incentive to keep changing them constantly.

Or perhaps the idea here is that players should ignore research in areas not covered by their present design company, letting tech in that field to drop bit behind times because they might not afford constant design company switches and because new tech without specialized design company in place might not be worth the upgrade in long term. For example Germany might opt to have fighter designer through 1939 and only switch CAS designer after 1940 fighter is researched then research CAS up to final tech and only afterwards switch back to fighter designer to research the last techs.

 

[Daelyn75]

Hmm. The bf-109 already researched at the start but has no company that gave it a bonus. Not sure I like that actually. Unless it's already has a default made by Messerschmitt. Which would be odd given that as Germany you still have to put a company in when researching fighters.

 

[LordOfWar16]

That's sort of a bummer actually. I was hoping the companies would give broadly equivalent bonuses and mauls to all technology under their responsibility without incentive to keep changing them constantly.

Or perhaps the idea here is that players should ignore research in areas not covered by their present design company, letting tech in that field to drop bit behind times because they might not afford constant design company switches and because new tech without specialized design company in place might not be worth the upgrade in long term. For example Germany might opt to have fighter designer through 1939 and only switch CAS designer after 1940 fighter is researched then research CAS up to final tech and only afterwards switch back to fighter designer to research the last techs.

Well, atleast as germany you get about 3 Political Points a day. That means in theory you could switch the company every 50 days, if you dont use your PP for anything else. Researching the airframe takes longer than that. It might not an good idea to constantly swap of course, as you said. You probably want to focus on one aspect of your airforce anyway. Its probably not a good idea to research fighters, bombers and close air support evenly as germany.

Hmm. The bf-109 already researched at the start but has no company that gave it a bonus. Not sure I like that actually. Unless it's already has a default made by Messerschmitt. Which would be odd given that as Germany you still have to put a company in when researching fighters.

The in my eyes minor problem would be that atleast on paper the UK would have an edge in 1936 fighter technology if germany didnt get any bonuses for the bf109 at start. That is balanced due to the fact that germany can produce bf109 alot sooner of course. Creating variants with experience is limited aswell, in that you cant upgrade them infinitely, but it is topped at 5 points per aspect max, atleast that is the current limit if i recall correctly.